Way more acid than molarly needed

Topic created by Anon
on Wed, 11 Jan 2023 at 17:40

Anon said on Wed, 11 Jan 2023 at 17:40...

I have come to a few conclusions when make poppers, I agree that you need molor ratios of around 1:1.1:1.1 for alchohol, sodium nitrite, and acid but my experience has been the molar ratio for acid should be much higher to use up all the alcohol. The poppers that I have made that came out fresh, were pretty acidic when the reaction was complete and then completely fine smelling after neutralized. When I try to use the correct molar ratios, I get an alcohol smell that carries into the final product. People talk about worry about scorching the poppers with acid but I don't believe this especially with 30-40% acid. So, I think it is correct to run the acid high to clear out all the alcohol and sodium nitrite and then neutralize the excess.

Anon said on Wed, 11 Jan 2023 at 17:48...

I would say one more thing. When I run up the acid and make sure I clear out all the alcohol, neutralize it, and then dry it out, I get little to no fizzing when I open the bottle. I strongly suspect that alcohol remaining in the popper either contributes to the degradation of the popper or attracts moisture that degrades it. Dead on, alcohol and water free poppers I don't believe fizz and keep extremely.

I believe that all commercial poppers suck because they were never alcohol and water free to begin with and maybe have some third chemical dilute to aid in evaporation.

The Professor said on Wed, 11 Jan 2023 at 18:39...

Anon,
A heavy excess of acid is one way to encourage more consumption of the parent alcohol. A less expensive, less wasteful and superior method, is to reduce the temperature of the environment.

A member here that goes by many names recently demonstrated that at room temperature, an average prep yields about 70% purity (the remainder being primarily un-reacted alcohol (at first)).

That purity level can be increased, to a degree, by utilizing lechatelier's principle (either adding an excess of reactants or removing water as it is created (by heading and taking excess water in a side outlet).

Both methods are either wasteful or cumbersome, and will only go to about 90% purity at room temperature with excess reactant at 300% or reacted water removal

That's still plenty of un-reacted alcohol; trouble.

Lechatelier's principle has a limited range (it's like counter-steering into a skid, it'll only do so much; the options being to either skid of the road or slow down and regain control.

Regarding control in a skid is a good analogy here, if your consider the eq constant of these types of reactions favors lowest possible temperature and highest possible pressure.

At room temperature, the eq constant is so low that the product is falling apart faster than it is being made; NO amount of excess acid or removed water will compensate for that.; The environment is not correct.

By reducing reaction temp with an ice bath at freezing point of water (0C) purity can be about 90% with no heavy excess of reactants and not having to boil away the excess water.

At about -15C, the yield itself starts to freeze over; about -12C is just about as cold as possible at atmospheric pressure. Going colder requires special equipment and is an explosion hazard.

Luckily, prepping at -12C, which slows the reaction down (like letting off the accelerator pedal) results in 98-99% purity, and leaves vanishing amounts of un-reacted alcohol.

A slight molar excess, prepped at -12C, and reactants meeting at 0.5 to 1.0 ml per minute (very slow) will not burn off (waste) acid and NaNO2, and will yield a very suitable product.

Keeping it that way would involve both stabilization and sinking the components at the beginning of the decomposition cascade.

Sulphuric acid WILL scorch the alcohols (being an extremely desiccating reactant), but HCL won't.

If you are interested, a maker's guide is at:

https://nublu.maitriworks.org/files/Alky%20Nitrite%20Preparation%20wiki.pdf

if you need support for the above document, ask --prof-- on reddit for access to the PopperMakers subreddit

r/PopperMakers

The Professor said on Wed, 11 Jan 2023 at 18:44...

The makers guide explains the fizzing thing.

TL;DR

The effervescence is the active ingredient, nitric oxide (NO), falling out of solution.

Only a fully nitrosatedd product w8ll do that. Unfortunately, it is also the very beginning of the decomposition cascade, so a stabilizer that prevents gas buildup in a sealed bottle will prevent the fizz, but also significantly slow down decomposition when stored.

Anon said on Thu, 12 Jan 2023 at 02:59...

This is my setup and I went this route to simply some things with trying to keep the temperature low.

alcohol, water, and sodium nitrite in a mason jar and stir and cool it in a freezer.

I drop the acid in with a 26 gauge syringe head melted to a 10 ml glass vial. I didn't really want to use a capillary pump and wanted to keep the mason jar sealed at all times to prevent anything getting into the freezer. It is stirred with a magnet stirrer.

This whole thing is about dumbing down the process and keeping it simple. I bang out good s

I set the 10 ml glass vials with 26g syringe heads into the jar. The drip rate is probably something on the order of 10 ml/hr. The drip rate might be too slow for what I am doing but it works. Smaller gauge needs are too thin to gravity feed acid.

I let it work away and the only problem that I have is that the freezer is too cold and once the reaction starts producing more water, the reaction is prone to freezing. I am tempted to reduce the starting amount of water to try to keep the freezing temp lower during the entirity of hte process.

This method to me works because it solves a couple of things.

1. Dealing with ice is a pain in the ass. A freezer will keep the temp very steady and cold.

2. The mason jar being sealed will not let thing out especially if it is cold. If it is cold, very little gas will be produced. Not enough to build up pressure.

3. Gravity feeding the acid makes the whole process extremely simple. The rate is higher when the column is more filled but not enough to matter. It is slow enough. You can use multiple vials but i don't know how many is too many. Ice build up from the water content increasing is the biggest problem.

This whole thing is about trying to keep it simple and contained. I can make pretty consistent stuff but I don't like how slow it is.

Urea Master said on Thu, 12 Jan 2023 at 03:22...

> At about -15C, the yield itself starts to freeze over; about -12C is just about as cold as possible at atmospheric pressure. Going colder requires special equipment and is an explosion hazard.

What do you mean by the yield freezing over? Does it physically freeze over, or is there some tell-tale sign like cloudiness or a color shift? I have saturated and super-saturated reactants for this reaction and have been able to keep things in the liquid (or at least I'll say low viscosity fluid) phase at -20 or -22 degrees C. That involves playing tricks with acid concentrations, possibly adding an NaCl "ballast" in addition to a saturated NaNO2 solution, and so forth. Below that, it will ice over. At -20 or -22, I still have not had a whole lot of success with a batch reaction.

The Professor said on Thu, 12 Jan 2023 at 16:14...

Anon,
That's a neat idea. One of our members has a similar setup, and it works very well.

The Professor said on Thu, 12 Jan 2023 at 16:31...

Urea,
I'm not concerned about the waste phase (ideally table salt and water if using HCL), but the yield phase starts to congeal.

-15C is not a hard boundary; I mention 'About -15C', and the actual set point will vary by a few degrees, as you indicate, and depending somewhat on the variables you mention.

The guidance in our guide is trying to keep the cost minimal, and the process as eco-friendly as possible. That means salt and ice instead of solvents, and exploiting (PV)/ T, but as you say, many variations are possible.

Are you doing continuous flow? Our members usually start with batch processing; tweak it and automate various aspects of it.

The Professor said on Thu, 12 Jan 2023 at 16:43...

Anon,
Reaction speed is an unfortunate consequence of going colder, but it wastes much less reactant, and greatly increases the reactions eq constant.

You mention parallel processing. An ideal version of that works be a continuous flow tractor, with thousands of micro channels reacting simultaneously.

In your case, several syringes dropping might overcome the thermal capacity of your cooler, raising the temp and reducing purity to gain speed. Regardless of the batch vessel size, the reaction site is always dropwise in size. The rest of the fluid is acting as a heat sink for the reaction site.

Too many 'hot' spots eventually overcome the cooling method's thermal capacity.

Two or three simultaneous streams should work fairly well, though, especially with a more efficient cooling system (one of our makers uses a small freezer trunk with great success.

Nitritespecialist said on Thu, 12 Jan 2023 at 20:30...

I just made 30 mls of very potent, non toxic IPN using 60 mls of chilled 70% Equate IPA.

I placed 30 mls of Sunnyside Muriatic in the freezer and added this, quick drops, to 29 grams of Consolidated SN placed into the chilled alcohol. I added ZERO additional water. I used an ice bath. I used high speed stir bar.

Odor is aromatic, non-sweet, non bitter, non acidic, non-caustic, but a faint odor of the IPA remains.

But the ass relax and libido increasing effects are exceedingly strong.

Gas escaping is a sign that the popper is still potent/fresh - provided it doesn't stink. If it stinks, it's garbage.

I tried using more acid with less water, BUT the yield fizzled and disappeared.

I tried using more acid with more water and the yield was still toxic and possessed a "fishy" odor.

Nitritespecialist said on Thu, 12 Jan 2023 at 20:36...

And I did try the Professor's super cold temps when making IPN and I got ZERO yield. He refuses to believe I got ZERO yield at his recommended super cold temps. Not once did this happen, but several times. Insanity is to keep doing something that absolutely does NOT work and this is what -12C did.

I don't believe super cold cures poor reagent quality, improper ratios....it's not necessary.

Nitritespecialist said on Thu, 12 Jan 2023 at 20:49...

YIELD is much less important, TO ME, than overall quality of popper...this means odor and effects have to be good...and ideally, preservation is possible with proper preservatives.

What I'm making now, the way I'm making it....is producing a SUPERIOR product to all other ways I had been making it.

Now...if -12C was going to improve what's already superior...then I would do it....BUT as I stated before...I got ZERO yield.

Nitritespecialist said on Thu, 12 Jan 2023 at 20:58...

As I've stated OVER and OVER again....the purity of the base alcohols has to be very HIGH to get a high purity popper without distillation.

When obtaining alcohols from secondhand dealers....if they are not factory sealed(not simply taped), they are suspect. And upon receiving factory sealed alcohols from TCI(direclty or indirectly), it's important to use the alcohol fairly quickly after it's been opened. I would not go longer than a month.

Degraded alcohols produce weak, bitter smelling poppers that do not preserve well.

The Professor said on Thu, 12 Jan 2023 at 21:32...

No need to scrum up these posts with your hysterical gulps to stay relevant Ken; your methods are at best a warning to others, and usually just an overall nuisance to those that wnt to get things done.

I have NEVER said that colder temperatures 'make up; for faulty ingredients; that's YOUR straw man fallacy that you try to persuade novices that you have a thing to say.

AS staqted ad infinitum, colder temps reduce the reaction speed; that you got NO yield belies your inferior prep. pour it all into a galoln milk jug and shake at room temp, you'll get junk, but quickly. drop it at about 1ml/min at -12C, and it'll take hours fort a full mole, but the yield will be more pure when it happens.

This isn't junkie level making; blather all you want.

I'm sure that a garbage-in-garbage-out prep with walmart purity IsoPropyl is doing fine for you; as your own texts show, you're getting 70-90 % purity, and that may be fine for a person that has the bad reaction to poppersm such that your swollen spleen guarantees.

The REST of us want somethiung safer, stronger, more pure.

Your nonsense is like letting a guy with a broken leg set the standard for how to run the 30yd dash.

The Professor said on Thu, 12 Jan 2023 at 21:43...

Ken's own words back to haunt him?

previously, it was "all of the reaqents have to be pristine pure, and used quickly or they go bad"

now it's "Wal-mart grade works fine with muriatic acid"

setting aside the FACT that concentrated acids have a shelf life of many years if handled properly; that alcohols have a shelf life of nearly two years, and that properly stored Sodium nitrite powder will remain viable for 18 months.

UNLESS you are scooping powder from a plastic bag, like Ken was, and who knows WHY he thinks alcohols and acids decompose in months rather than years;

and really, who cares? if he likes it, that's fine, just DON't pretend that you know what's pure from what's weak, when even your n-Amyl preps brought your O2 sats to dangerous levels

GIGO

(garbage-in-garbage-out)

Urea Master said on Fri, 13 Jan 2023 at 00:09...

> Are you doing continuous flow? Our members usually start with batch processing; tweak it and automate various aspects of it.

No, there is too much setup for that. I am fine with distillation, but I need to come up with something crude that isn't 0.1% alkyl nitrite before I distill.

Nitritespecialist said on Fri, 13 Jan 2023 at 01:43...

OMG...I just had a longer session with my fresh IPN brew.....hit it very hard with frequent hits. Never a toxic effect. Hardly any IPA odor....nondescript odor and VERY aromatic.

VERY VERY POTENT.......if you want to ride your set of dildos all day long....this is it!!!

If you want to hit the sex clubs...this is it!!!

I almost went out and tried to flag a sex partner down...that's how incredible the brew is....

And all without adding any additional water.....and without SUPER cold -12 C temps.

Nitritespecialist said on Fri, 13 Jan 2023 at 01:45...

Oh...Thomas the Professor would admit he was wrong about anything no matter what. He hasn't changed his tune since he did HIS one and done 12 years ago.

Anonymous said on Fri, 13 Jan 2023 at 01:46...

"would NOT" as was easily understood

Just NOISE NOISE NOISE....coming from Thomas

The Professor said on Fri, 13 Jan 2023 at 03:01...

Urea,
Continuous flow would be expensive; a 1 mol batch is about 120ml @ 15-25 cents per ml.

The Professor said on Fri, 13 Jan 2023 at 03:05...

Dream on Ken,
Nobody ever liked the crap you made; and you've purposefully sabotaged your own news to make a point before. We're supposed to take a proven liars words at face value? Ridiculous (and funny)

In the other hand; you're single handedly responsible for the last 30 or so makers joining our group, just to get away from your insanity...... Good job on that front; by being the rotten example, you've driven many makers to the nirvana of being able to make consistently potent, highly pure and long lasting product.

Urea Master said on Fri, 13 Jan 2023 at 03:29...

I suppose that I could do a continuous flow reactor with tubing or a cascade of glassware, and the cost isn't really a consideration (old single homo making half a mil a year), but the setup is a mess. I can't see myself wasting the time tuning it and throwing away materials waiting for the reactor to go to steady-state. On top of that, it's unlikely that doing continuous flow is going to make any difference when nobody without a commercial address and papers for incorporation can get remotely pure NaNO2.

I did generate a relatively pure NO gas and then slightly oxidized it to N2O3 + NO (10:1 NO+O2 ratio, NO inxs) and condensed it to a beautiful blue slush with liquid N2 in a dewar condenser and then dripped that into chilled alcohol, but it ended up smelling like batch product made with bad NaNO2 again. How can we even consider things like pKa at such temperatures and with only minute amounts of water which would be caged or freeze anyway? Well, that is my theory. If you could liken it to pH, the ester would probably be seeing something around 2 when a drop of the blue N2O3 hits the partially estrified alcohol, doing these calculations at STP. If I bubble N2O3 through alcohol, I lose a lot to evaporative effects. I have used a recirculating setup in this type of experiment, using a membrane pump to pull from an expandable reservoir kept at RT. Being at RT, I realize that just a little humidity can shift the reaction towards a cloud of HNO3, but I think that I desiccated it enough. This is a difficult one.

The Professor said on Fri, 13 Jan 2023 at 16:09...

Vapor phase is also a challenge; you have to be very much into chemistry to succeed.
I'm a hobbyist astronomer; it's a bit like manually tracking a guide start during a two hour exposure (tedious, but for an author is part of the process, and fun.

The Professor said on Fri, 13 Jan 2023 at 16:10...

Fat fingers on phone meant to say guide star and astronomer

The Professor said on Fri, 13 Jan 2023 at 16:17...

If you have an LLC, Sigma Aldrich et al will ship to you after sending them pictures of your soul containment equipment and storage area, along with your written hazmat containment and spill procedures.

You mentioned artisanal using food grade; I hope not, but possibly, given their tendency to be greedy cost cutting bastards.

For personal use, refining food grade can still yield high priority in liquid phase batch process.

Nitritespecialist said on Fri, 13 Jan 2023 at 18:20...

Correction....If anybody liked the turbid smelly crap that Thomas sent them, I would just have to say....some people will like anything that gives any type of abnormal "sensation".

ONE and DONE....and nothing learned since!!!

Anon said on Fri, 13 Jan 2023 at 18:20...

It freeze up the portion that has higher water content which prevent the acid form being stirred in.

How do you add NaCl when it reacts with acid?

Am I using too much water?

This is what I am going by.

https://ibb.co/RHjY7nD

Nitritespecialist said on Fri, 13 Jan 2023 at 18:21...

And I did hit my newest IPN again this AM and OMG....amazingly good. I hit it very hard and not the slightest toxic effect. Just total pleasure!!!

Nitritespecialist said on Fri, 13 Jan 2023 at 18:59...

I took a look at the chart....about a 40% solution of SN is being used in each case...4 parts SN to 6 parts water.

The total amount of water per 10-11 mls of pentyl alcohol is roughly 13 mls or grams plus 6(in the 37% HCl). Total is 19 mls water per 10-11 mls pentyl alcohol. It's less water than I have historically used, but it's not as low as the amount I'm using to make IPN. Everett Farr's patent states to use 10% by weight of the alcohol for water content. That's not much.

I don't have any more amyl alcohol, so I can't experiment with water amounts. BUT, when making IPN, I am NOT adding any additional water to 70% IPA and the 32% HCl. I add the SN directly to the alcohol mix and drip in the HCl. The solids are NEVER totally dissolved. There are 3 distinct layers after the stir bar stops. In theory, the over saturation with salt has caused the nitrite to not only form more completely(towards the right) but also it helps draw water out of the mix and the crude nitrite.

It's made a 180 difference for my IPN.

Nitritespecialist said on Fri, 13 Jan 2023 at 19:02...

It appears that the amount of acid used is the amount that will cause a complete enough reaction without going to the point where the forming nitrite starts to fizz and degrade. You know when to stop adding acid when you start to see fizzing. You've gone way too far if you see foaming.

Nitritespecialist said on Fri, 13 Jan 2023 at 19:07...

When reducing the water content, it may require LESS acid...the molar ratios of the reactants will NOT be balanced.

Balanced equations don't give you a high purity product because of the reactants reach a point of equilibrium which is NOT the point at which all reactants have been consumed and only product remains.

Simply changing the temperature.....is not going to be the best method to resolve this problem....especially when water is a big enemy in forming the product. It's far better to extract water.....OR in theory use the least amount of water that is practical.

The Professor said on Fri, 13 Jan 2023 at 19:49...

Back from your lunch break at Walgreens again eh?

You've done so many 180s that you're head is spinning Ken. In the beginning, when people were trying to help YOU get good product (while everyone around you was having great success), you would always lament the absence of a 'proper' chemist to explain your failures to you.

You've come across several chemists since then, and they ALL condemn your methods and ideas as unsafe, and your language as a string of words that say nothing.

Ken- I know the acid degrades quickly because I was getting good towels until the bottle was half empty' ?

Reality- concentrated HCL is nearly the most stable reactant there is if stored properly

Ken- I am absolutely certain that the SN decomposes within two months. I was getting fantastic results until the bottle was half empty

Reality- sodium nitrite will remain viable for 18 months if stored properly

Ken- the alcohols have to be absolutely pure, and will go bad very quickly, usually within a month or so once opened

Reality- alcohols have a shelf life of about 2 yrs once opened, if stored properly.

Ken - excess water will create toxic impurities.

Reality- water allows the ions to dissociate and float around, eventually binding with each other, without water there is no reaction, and limiting water limits the reaction.

From someone who's mantra is 'fuck science' it's no wonder you are lost in the woods, and consider a half made product to be the only thing that is non-toxic.

As a willfully ignorant person with extremely limited comprehension, it's again no wonder that you will always deny the reality of techniques that don't make sense to YOU.

But yes, by all means, continue to deny the reality that you have been shown, the methods you deny are actual chemistry methods that have been confirmed by scientific method.

No amount of facing Esst to see the sunset will suddenly make it appear for you Ken.

Nearly 100 makers in our group now having wild success, and not a one has ever reported back that the methods I advise, or the product that I provide is anything but stellar.

Rant on...

Nitritespecialist said on Fri, 13 Jan 2023 at 20:45...

Thomas the wanna be Professor of Chemistry.....has DEBUNKED absolutely nothing....nor has his imaginary legions of fans.

Nitritespecialist said on Fri, 13 Jan 2023 at 20:48...

In fact, I have debunked Tom's claim that -12 C will produce a superior popper.....Unlike Tom, I actually tried in earnest to make IPN using super cold temps.....and I kept getting ZERO yield.

So...I debunked his -12 C theory, not once, not twice...but many times.

Nitritespecialist said on Fri, 13 Jan 2023 at 20:50...

And I know for a fact my TCI one pentanol goes bad after being used and opened for a maximum of two months.

Nitritespecialist said on Fri, 13 Jan 2023 at 20:51...

WATER kills ESTERIFICATION!!! It's easy to google such information.

Nitritespecialist said on Fri, 13 Jan 2023 at 20:52...

It's such a pity Thomas pretends to have a PH.D. in chemistry, such are his delusions of grandeur!!!

Anonymous said on Fri, 13 Jan 2023 at 20:53...

I thought Tom was just an old disabled, embittered Vet in Nebraska???

Nitritespecialist said on Fri, 13 Jan 2023 at 20:57...

I think Thomas damaged many of his brain cells via all those gas mask contraptions he sets up to savor his latest toxic brew!!! Presumably this is the source of his disability!!!

BrewMeister... said on Fri, 13 Jan 2023 at 21:02...

No doubt....he chastised me harshly for not using his enclosed MASK that he sent with his turd turbid popper sample.

PopperExpert said on Fri, 13 Jan 2023 at 21:04...

Yes....you DO REMEMBER that smelly turbid milky white 30 ml sample...don't you Thomas???

I remember you LAUGHED about it and made up some BS excuse about why it was so wretched, more wretched than any brew I ever could have made. Hmmmm...-12C didn't save that brew, did it!!!!

The Professor said on Fri, 13 Jan 2023 at 22:14...

I remember back then Popchef was making at 0C; I remember he sent out 4 ounce bottles to all the members of the 'cook off' and a 30ml bottle to Ken.

I remember that ALL of the other makers had great things to day about it, save the singular hold out, Ken.

I remember his headless chicken approach being called out by MANY chemists aside from myself.

All the rest of his nonsense is lies or histrionics.

Luckily; makers that are truly interested in science, rather than fantasy, have learned to ignore his posts, stepping over the pile, lest they step in a bag of shit.

Also luckily, we have a safe haven where we can discuss topics that matter, rather than being spittled on with a tirade of expletives, ad hominem and straw man fallacies.

Triple luck that Ken isn't backing down, continues to make a nuisance of himself, and drives curious makers toward the truth.

Keep on being you, Ken, in ALL your vulgar personalities; I'm counting on your bullshit to help the r/Poppermakers group grow.

The Professor said on Fri, 13 Jan 2023 at 22:18...

I noticed above that you used the gaslighting 'slight-of-hand' again when you vomited "the theory is".

translation: HIS un-informed guess is.

and of course, it is incorrect; just as HIS idea that reducing the solvent (water) forces the reaction to the right, or that the alcohol will suck the nitrogen out of the acid.

world class ass-fuckery Ken

Nitritespecialist said on Sat, 14 Jan 2023 at 17:12...

The preceding words of Tom's were total useless NOISE...as usual.

He peppers half truths with errors and lies in order to confuse, daze and hopefully ensnare a few gullible souls.

That said, I had a massively, long session with my latest IPN. The whole time it was incredible ecstasy, BUT I did eventually reach a point where the joy subsided and the side effects began to take hold. BUT this was after at least an hour of hitting the bottle repeatedly. Several hours later, I had a mini 10 minute session and was able to get the same level of ecstasy. Tom HAS NEVER and will NEVER admit that any of his brews are wretched and can cause side effects. He only gives half truths. I don't hate Tom. He's to be pitied, BUT he's DEAD WRONG about how to best make poppers...and I won't stand for it.

-12 C won't get you there EVER. And without upsetting the equilibrium in a batch process in the best way possible, YOU WILL NEVER get an optimum brew that doesn't need distilled. Changing the temp is not the best strategy to moving the reaction towards a greater purity product.

Nitritespecialist said on Sat, 14 Jan 2023 at 17:17...

You need HIGHLY pure reagents, especially the alcohols,for each batch. You need proper ratios....NOT balanced because EQUILIBRIUM stops you from getting to a higher purity popper. And it cannot be slightly out of balance. It has to be a lot out of balance. The best way to achieve when making ESTERS is extract water, which forms as by product and is needed to hold ions in suspension, OR by limiting the amount of water in the reaction to the lowest possible amount. This could vary depending on all the other ratios of reagents and the differences between different alcohols.

Nitritespecialist said on Sat, 14 Jan 2023 at 17:21...

For months, I have been having great success with IPN. And the critical difference in prep has been the limiting of water. I add ZERO additional water besides what is already in the 70% IPA and the 32% HCl.

My IPN is low on toxic effects, at least within a reasonable time frame, and it gives consistent extreme libido increasing effects and physiological pleasure. My greatest fear is that it's so good, I'll become too dependent on it and abuse it.

The Professor said on Sat, 14 Jan 2023 at 18:31...

Back on earth, we had a fun day today; my brother's kids visited again.

We played round two of 'is Ken smarter than a 5th grader? '

We made octyl acetate (smells like apples). The little girl was a quick study, learned how to do the math of ion swapping, and using the allegory of a see-saw, she seemed to have a handle on equilibrium shifts.

With ingredients on the see, and products on the saw, she predicted that by removing water from the see (ingredients), that the saw would drop to the ground; recovering equilibrium (getting the see and saw to balance again she predicted would move the balance toward see (ingredients), and making saw lighter by removing water from products would shift the balance toward product.

Those were her initial predictions.

We went to the lab, and prepped some octyl acetate at room temperature. Beaker A.

A second prep, breaker B, was made with less water as an ingredient, and the third prep removed reaction water with a side arm. Beaker C.

As predicted, beaker A smelled like apples. Beaker B, made with less water, smelled much more faint, and beaker C, with reaction water removed, smelled much stronger.

After lunch, were going back to the lab, and introduce ice baths to the equation, to see how much of a difference will be had by lowering the temperature.

Angela for the win!

And thanks to Ken for bringing up this simple exercise, which shows (if he would have continued to post the section of the exercise that disapproves his ideas about water removal) to students in their own experience that room temperature reactions yield on average 70% completion, that removing REACTION water can increase completion to about 90%, and that a OC ice bath with give nearly 95%.

BUT, removing water from the ingredients Decreases purity

Nitritespecialist said on Sat, 14 Jan 2023 at 19:32...

Half Truths, errors and lies.....all coming from the wanna be Professor of Chemistry. No proof of anything....the proof should have been in his samples....but NO...they were total toxic crap...far worse than anything I have ever made or imagined could exist.

The Professor said on Sat, 14 Jan 2023 at 19:49...

Before we head of for the lab to try the same experiment with an ice bath, it's probably useful to point out that the samples that Popchef sent out were prepped at -OC, not -12C.

11 people were sent 4 ounce bottles. they very much enjoyed the product.

1 person (ken) was sent a 15 or 30 ml bottle, simply because, after experiencing Ken's MADNESS for 6 years at poppersplace, he had non interest in his opinion any.

His FIRST reaction (I have the email sent to me by Popchef, and anybody else who had crawled poppersplace and reddit to capture that back and forth will remember)) was favoraboe; he even talked about retiring his making gear, and 'allowing' Popchef to make for him going forward.

What an EGOCENTRIC assumption; that Popchef was involved simply to please Ken's whims.

It's been downhill time wastin, vulgar expleteives, gaslighting, ad homin, straqw man fallacies since.

Back to the lab for part 3 ( so far, 5th grader 2, Ken zilch)

Nitritespecialist said on Sat, 14 Jan 2023 at 20:51...

If it's talking about poppers...and it walks and talks like Thomas the disabled Vet in Nebraska.....then PopChef and the Professor are virtually the same person. Both make the claim that -12 C is some magic temp imperative to every popper prep. Doesn't matter....their methods and downplaying of the role of quality of reagents, especially the alcohols, is all WRONG and was debunked 100 plus years ago by real chemists.

Nitritespecialist said on Sat, 14 Jan 2023 at 20:54...

0C should NOT result in the putrid turbid milky white garbage that was sent to me.

NONE...of my brews were ever that bad!!! And I experimented a lot.

Nitritespecialist said on Sat, 14 Jan 2023 at 20:57...

Thomas, the disabled embittered Vet, repeatedly calls me dumb. This is his way of making himself feel superior to others..especially dissenters.

I however have never suggested Thomas is DUMB....no, he's fairly intelligent, which makes him all the more nefarious.

The Professor said on Sun, 15 Jan 2023 at 00:13...

Back in time for Supper; 5th graders 3, Ken zero (as predicted)

I see that Ken continues his word salad while we were having fun.

NOBODY is claiming that -12C is a magic set point. On the one hand, Popchef's first mention of that was about 6 yrs ago, LONG after he had already been exposed to Ken's lies for more than four years.

The cookoff samples he sent were prepped at OC, not -12C, and 11 other makers really enjoyed them, Ken did also, and only later did this fantasy that it smelled foul (and his story becomes more tragic as the years go by) come along. A typical narcissistic penis envy thing.

(if Ken didn't think of it, it's buollshit)

a maker here, just yesterday, mentioned that he preps down to -20C or so; I make no claim that -12C is perfect, and that lower OR higher sucks; only that -12C is a good starting point)

There is a HUGE difference between stupidity an willful ignorance. I have NOT called you dumb; I've simply RECOGNIZED that the egocentric narcissist typically employs willful ignorance as a tool to pursuade others.

YOU ALONE have put yourself in a situation that provides the reader with two choices; "This guy is an idiot (and it is evident that your comprehension level is sub-standard; dumb? that's not for me to say, but definitely below the median) OR 'this guy has an axe to grind, and would rather let us THINK that he is dumb than admit he is wrong.

Wenis said on Sun, 15 Jan 2023 at 19:34...

Anon So you witness Walter White nd Jessie Pinkmen duke it out on here. When The Professor nd Nitritespecialist (also about 1000 other usernames) Tom vs. Ken. I think of so many differnt scences in breaking bad. This culd be a movie. Of the 2 arch nenmises. But in BB they never actually get 2 a point when they r in agreement with each other. Sometimes they r. Nd wut they make is gold. But ur either going to trust The Professor. And wuth his samples sent out. Rember who words r u going to trust? With 11 ppl saying it was great stuff. Nd 1 says its bad..... Ya kno wut r u gonna think. And at 1st he said it was good 2. The Professor has the upper hand thts ovious. Ken will kept fighting and never back down. Its enjoyable to watch lol . if ken culd put his ego down then the both of them culd come up with an awasome cook fourmlua. (Also Tom i boycoted artisans cleaners, as i kno they did you wrong. We shuld get everyone on reddit and on here 2 trash those pos in reviews, tht they lose custmers. Cuz it wasnt right from them 2 steal from u like tht )

The Professor said on Sun, 15 Jan 2023 at 21:31...

8 think you are correct in that Ken will never back down, and it's mostly an ego thing.

I don't know that it mattered very much that artisanal stole from our group; their IMPLEMENTATION of our ideas was never what we intended in the first place. Is rather just not be associated with their product at all, rather than make noise against them.

They stole the concepts, but what they did with them? I Am not comfortable with having my ideas associated with their results in any way.

Not that it matters at all, but I have no idea where Ken came up with the idea that my name was Tom, or Thomas. I thought perhaps it was in reference to Thomas the tank engine, but who knows.

poppersx said on Wed, 30 Aug 2023 at 02:41...

too much acid leads to excessive poisonous gas, in my experiences anyways. be careful that shit is nasty i got a good whiff of it a while bad was sick for hours