10 year old Mistake....
Posted on Poppers Guide's Forum
Topic created by PopperHeadache
on Sun, 17 Jul 2022 at 18:40
PopperHeadache said on Sun, 17 Jul 2022 at 18:40...
Around 2013, there was a popper making thread whereby a handful of people were attempting, for the first time, to make poppers.
Everyone had access to the William Noyes method. It's been available online for a long time. Everyone assumed Joe Miller was only making isobutyl nitrite at the time of his death in 2010 because normal amyl nitrite is not legal except by script, although you can buy it via a chemical company if you can pay the huge mark up in cost and shipping. Isopentyl nitrite, however, is much cheaper, because it's much less stable and develops a stench quickly.
Everyone soon discovered that sulfuric acid creates a very thick sodium sulfate precip that impedes mag stirring. So..most, including the Professor, switched over to HCl and figured the problem was solved once and for all. But no....the Professor noticed the impure muck he had created with HCl and decided molecular sieves were the magic bullet to suck up all that toxic muck.
Eventually, I switched over too. But after many years of disappointing results, and lots and lots of trial and error, I finally figured out that sulfuric acid is superior to HCl. It's superior when making an ester. It's dehydrating, which helps push the reaction to completion. It doesn't fume, so it can be handled inside without a hood. The by product is sodium sulfate, which is generally considered non-toxic(Wikipedia). In it's dried form it can be used to dry alkyl nitrites.
HCl always gave inconsistent results, a myriad of odors and weird effects, and as the poppers began to age, they acquired bitter odors. The alleged magical MS4 did not resolve these issues.
The primary knowledge missing was that Noyes works great - provided there is strong mixing, either by a machine or by hand. The other important discovery is that the butyl group of poppers, like the isopropyl group, can and often will possess impurities that make them far more toxic and sickness inducing....not tomorrow or in a month, but right here and right now....during the first 5 minutes of whiffing, you can suddenly feel very sick.
As many times as I have made amyl nitrite, it's never NEVER been that bad. I have never gone down for the count. So even the presence of impurities doesn't seem to make it a lot more toxic, just a lot less fun.
The Professor said on Sun, 17 Jul 2022 at 19:33...
A (not THE) byproduct of prep will be sodium sulfate.
In reality, being a 'dirty and cheap' acid, sulfuric also will leave two hydroxyl groups in the pot.
Take a minute to understand that, along with a LOT of OH floating in the reagent, there will be a LOT of sodium (Na) which bonds with OH to form caustic lye (NaOH).
That alone will damage yield and destroy living tissue.
Now try to stabilize the product with potassium carbonate. Knowing that there is still going to be sulfuric acid dissolved in the pot, those hydroxyls will now bond to K from the potassium carbonate to form KOH (which saponifies esters) which not only greatly reduces the vapor pressure (and therefore the desired effect) but in itself is highly alkaline and caustic.
These are the facts you deny, nothing huge in the scheme of things, until you realize that if you live next door to an idiot that's polluting your water supply.
At that point, idiocy is now effecting innocent bystanders.
MyAssJustExploded!!! said on Sun, 17 Jul 2022 at 19:49...
Oh..OK....so all along it wasn't that sulfuric acid was just too damn hard to stir??? Oh OK...if you say so.
The Professor said on Sun, 17 Jul 2022 at 20:00...
It's not hard to stir with an overhead mixer, which doesn't have to be a chemistry equipment supplier, it can be as simple as a re-purposed bench drill or electric driver.
Stirring difficulty wasn't why PopChef switched to HCL, and it isn't why I use HCL.
Your own words about doing things right or doing things that are easier have come back to haunt you, as you are now doing the prep as cheap and dirty as IMAGINEABLE.
Anonymous said on Sun, 17 Jul 2022 at 20:19...
OK....whatever you say. I just googled a million references that say "amyl nitrite is made with sulfuric acid, amyl alcohol and sodium nitrite". But whatever you say....go ahead...whatever floats your boat.
Popperasswipe said on Sun, 17 Jul 2022 at 20:38...
OMG....I remember that turbid, milky 30 ml bottle of smelly garbage the Professor sent me once. He was so angry I didn't bow down and worship him for sending me that POS.
Oh yeah....whatever he says....go with it.
RupturedSigmoid said on Sun, 17 Jul 2022 at 20:40...
CrackheadWhore said on Sun, 17 Jul 2022 at 20:53...
Oh no....the Professor's stuff ain't no good no more? WTF happened???
Father said on Mon, 18 Jul 2022 at 00:14...
Product obtained from concentrated sulfuric acid To purify the product, you can use a solution containing 1g of sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO₃ and 12g of sodium chloride (NaCl) in 50 ml of distilled water.
Then dry it using anhydrous magnesium sulfate (MgSO₄ and next distillation under reduced pressure (vacuum distillation)
Father said on Mon, 18 Jul 2022 at 00:20...
Product obtained from concentrated sulfuric acid
To purify the product, you can use a solution containing 1g of sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3) and 12g of sodium chloride (NaCl) in 50 ml of distilled water (rinse several times).
Then dry it using anhydrous magnesium sulfate (MgSO4) and next distillation under reduced pressure (vacuum distillation)
Father said on Mon, 18 Jul 2022 at 00:40...
Hydrochloric acid/HCl is also good
After separating the water layer, you can wash / rinse with a dilute soda solution and then several times with distilled water.
And for drying, can use anhydrous calcium chloride (CaCl2) and distillation under reduced pressure (vacuum distillation)
Father said on Mon, 18 Jul 2022 at 00:57...
In this way, can be obtained a pure product without impurities
If The Professor reading this, please give me your opinion
Father said on Mon, 18 Jul 2022 at 01:30...
Maybe orbital shaker is good for mixing? it does not need a magnetic stirrer inside
Father said on Mon, 18 Jul 2022 at 01:57...
Anhydrous sodium carbonate/soda ash can be added to neutralize residual sulfuric acid in the final product
Chris Hansen said on Mon, 18 Jul 2022 at 07:58...
10 year old "Mistake", you say.
Why donít you take a seat right over there?"
PlowMyHoleHard!!! said on Mon, 18 Jul 2022 at 15:51...
At least I admit when a brew/method just ain't good enough even when it seems promising at first. The Professor just clings to the myth that his poppers are the Holy Grail...and since I tried two of his samples...the one being totally worse than any brew I've ever made, I know his are NOT the Holy Grail.
MyShitDon'tStink!! said on Mon, 18 Jul 2022 at 16:02...
I dunno bout that. Word on the streets is that the Professor's brews are legit....capable of sending one to the moon and back ten times over.
Popperasswipe said on Mon, 18 Jul 2022 at 16:04...
Oh yeah....I've tried plenty of them...and they DO WORK!!! I was so tranced out, I blacked out and couldn't tell which of my holes had what in them. Nor could I tell how big each of the probing peckers were. But...it was amazing!!!! TOTALLY!!!
The Professor said on Mon, 18 Jul 2022 at 19:07...
Father & Chris,
apologies; the only real people in this topic are myself, you guys and a trolling click-baiting desperate liar named Ken Jones. He has many aliases, and lately his posts have either been a series of attacks against anybody that points out his dangerous behavior, or posts ENCOURAGING others to follow along in his 13 year parade of failures.
This topic is HIS version (and notice how he blames everyone but himself) of what transpired at a website called poppersplace. He makes it sound like he was lead astray for 10 years, and got back to doing it 'right' when he recently switched BACK to using sulfuric acid instead of hydrochloric acid; the reality is the entire forum he was running became a 'let's help Ken figure out why he's failing so much' and he eventually left the group for reddit (and was banned there).
He denies the simple math that he is ALSO making poisonous substances by doing it the 'quick and dirty' junkie way, and is poisoning his neighborhood's water supply.
Ken's still playing with his imaginary friends
readers that are new to this forum probably haven't experienced the lying, deceitful, willful ignorance that is Ken (aka anonymous, aka brewmeister, aka popperass, aka madeplentypoppers, aka NitriteSpecialist aka PopperExpert, aka PopperMaker, aka kenjoneslee, aka John Mulligan,
aka PopperHeadache, aka MyAssJustExploded!!!, aka RupturedSigmoid, aka Popperasswipe, aka MyShitDon'tStink!!, aka PlowMyHoleHard!!!
He'll fight his wrong ideas to the ground, hasn't attained control of this reaction 13 years, and is wasting everyone's time.
another big yawn with no new content, a dollop of lies, with a dash of baloney
Those interested in the REAL science can always refer to the wiki, and join PopperMakers (a subreddit) if you need support for it.)
Father said on Mon, 18 Jul 2022 at 21:21...
The Professor, I'm not interested in Ken and what he does
I would like you to refer to what I wrote if it makes sense and can work
Father said on Mon, 18 Jul 2022 at 21:50...
The PDF file does not include information about what I wrote earlier, so I am looking for information on this topic
I can describe two alternative methods of producing nitrite
What I wrote above is the final stage of one of them
The Professor said on Mon, 18 Jul 2022 at 21:59...
I'll try to get a word in edgewise before he swamps the thread again.
You described two methods of neutralizing excess acid. Simple baking soda will do the trick (acid +base = salt + water)
The calcium chloride you mentioned is a useful way to do a 'quick dry' (which removes excess water (nitrites are slightly miscible in water) to help slow down decomposition.
Both are useful tools to help make the nitrite last longer and be smoother to inhale.
MOST over-the-counter stuff skips theses steps, because they also reduce yield, and the lust for money does its thing.
The pdf I posted covers neutralizatioin, drying, and stabilization techniques for alkyl nitrites. It's hard to support here, but I'll try to watch out for your screen name
The Professor said on Mon, 18 Jul 2022 at 22:04...
I don't recommend using magnesium sulfate to dry poppers; it speeds up decomposition; Calcium chloride also works, but the molecular sieves (MS3) will dry them to about 20 parts per million.
Molecular sieves are made of a clay like material, and can create a cloudiness in the popper. Activated alumina is an alternative, made of aluminum pellets and won't create dust in the bottle
Father said on Mon, 18 Jul 2022 at 23:40...
I can send you two alternative methods of nitrite production, so you could tell if you have encountered these methods before
What about the orbital shaker? Is it suitable for mixing or does it mix too poorly?
The Professor said on Mon, 18 Jul 2022 at 23:58...
If you are using HCL acid, a magnetic stirrer would work perfectly.
If want to use sulfuric, an overhead mixer with ore torque is needed to overcome the sludge that develops and bogs down a stir bar.
I don't recommend using Sulfuric, and I don't recommend stirring very fast.
If done as in the pdf. each drop of acid, under the surface, is in contact with ONLY the NaNO2 powder solution; a gentle agitation (if you want to try using an orbital shaker it should be on very slow speed). just enough to encourage circulation of the HCL.
If on high speed, the top layers (the yield on top, alcohol underneath, and NaNO2 underneath that) will be sucked down into the vortex, and will that would expose the yield AND alcohol to the strong acid (bad).
A neat and clean method drops strong acid down into the NaNO2, changing it to HNO2 (nitrous acid (very weak acid)) and NaCL (salt).
The salt is waste, and falls to the bottom.
The HNO2 floats up into the alcohol layer, which turns the alcohol into a popper.
The yield floats to the top and is r3emoved with a separatory funnel.
The whole thing will happen anerobically, which protects the very fragile popper.
Father said on Tue, 19 Jul 2022 at 03:04...
Thank you Professor
Later, I will describe two alternative methods of producing nitrite in a new post
The Professor said on Tue, 19 Jul 2022 at 14:04...
You're welcome, father
GapingHole... said on Tue, 19 Jul 2022 at 17:29...
Wow....that was a lot to vent over someone who only acknowleges that he has tried Noyes and it works. Oddly that Noyes could have, BUT didn't use HCl....He also recommended a rapid, whirling mixing motion....but what the heck....if some online chemistry guru says he's got the perfect mix....wow...why not go with him.
FuckMeFatherProfessor said on Tue, 19 Jul 2022 at 17:31...
Oh....but everyone knows the stuff the Professor cranks out is so so good.....that's why we all now know where to get the good stuff. It's like 2009 again....everywhere and anywhere sells good poppers(Joe's). Let's all bow down to the Professor for resurrecting Joe's poppers.
Nitritespecialist said on Tue, 19 Jul 2022 at 17:34...
Oh yeah...that dang dirty MS4 balls...make poppers turbid...but what caused that wretched odor as well? Smelled like vomit...
The Professor said on Wed, 20 Jul 2022 at 01:18...
Notes uses sulfuric because his prep is for the 'regular' not for human use, uses for Alkyl nitrite.
If you only need a few ml of nitrite for diazotization, it doesn't matter of the result is obnoxious to inhale, because it won't be exposed to human tissue.
In that case, who cares if it has Lye in it, as sulfuric was readily available in the 1930s, and much cheaper than HCL., Which only became available in concentrated down much later.
Also, notes couldn't have used concentrated HCL because it wasn't available at that density, the product wasn't intended for human use, and sulfuric fits the bill even though it's a dirty prep.