First Batch after The Professor Wiki
Posted on Poppers Guide's Forum
Topic created by Curious Popper's User
on Wed, 15 Jun 2022 at 16:40
Curious Popper's User said on Wed, 15 Jun 2022 at 16:40...
Yesterday I made my first batch, after reading The Professor's wiki. I made a couple of changes from my previous method, which was by no means ideal or even good. First, I mixed the NaNO2 with the alcohol (isobytil) and dripped the cold HCl onto this mix, whereas before I was pre-mixing the alcohol with the acid. Second, I used to drip from above, while mixing the NaNO2 solution. This time, I didn't use the magnetic stirrer and dripped tha acid below the line where the alcohol is floating on top of the NaNO2 solution(they separate after a few seconds after pouring). What a difference! As soon as the drop of acid hits the NaNo2, you can see it turning blue (it's really beautiful to watch), and then floating, only to be trapped by the layer of alcohol above. Very slow drops, maybe once every 5 seconds. I also used an excess of HCl and NaNO2, measuring the alcohol at exactly 1 mol. After a while, the bottom part (NaNO2) has completely turned dark blue, and the top part( the alcohol), has turned entirely green. At that point, the infamous brown fume starting leaving the reaction (something that had never happened before with my old method), and I figured all the alcohol had been consumed so the HNO2 had no more alcohol to react with and was turning into NOx. Then I separated the result and washed it to neutralize de acid, as usual.
The resulting product was very different from what I used to get... first of all, it had no smell (really none), and caused no irritation, headache or anything like that. On the other hand, it is not as strong compared to a bottle of Jungle Juice (though to be fair I don't know what JJ is made with).
I want to thank the Professor for the reading material, which was incredibly educational! And I wanted to share my experience here in case it might help others. Lastly, I would welcome any comments on whether I was right in assuming, once the fumes began to form, that the alcohol had been used up and I should just interrupt the reaction at that point.
Anonymous said on Wed, 15 Jun 2022 at 17:18...
I believe that's exactly what happened. The alcohol was the limiting reagent and once it was used up, the excess nitrous acid had no place to go but degrade into nitrogen gases and nitric acid. And who knows what side products were formed.
From 1999....Italian scientists making and evaluting poppers.....read how they made their "standard" popper. Took over an hour just to make 1 ml. They protected the reaction from light and O2. GC showed each standard contained the nitrite plus the base alcohol. We don't know if the base alcohol formed spontaneously during the GC test or was present as soon as it was sealed.
Preparation ofAlkyl Nitrites
An amount of 1 mL ofthe suitable alcohol was added to a mixture of 0.2 mL water and
1 mL concentrated sulfuric acid (96%) ~n a 50 mL flask chilled in an ice bath, under nitrogen
atmosphere in the dark. The mixture 'fas shaken for 10 min, then an equimolar solution of
sodium nitrite (4 mL) was added dropwise with periodic shaking. The solution was shaken
at five minute intervals for an hour.ithen let stand to permit the separation of the alkyl
nitrite from the aqueous layer. The upper alkyl nitrite layer was mixed with anhydrous
sodium sulfate, then transferred into a small vial and sealed.
0.2 mL ofthe reaction product were then analysed by HS/GCIMS
Anonymous said on Wed, 15 Jun 2022 at 17:25...
Perhaps performing the reaction, protected from light, and under an inert gas, is the best way to end up with a higher purity popper. I don't think pure alkyl nitrites are devoid of distinctive odors. How can they be when they are so volatile? Certainly the base alcohols all have their distinctive odors. It only follows that the alkyl nitrites would too.
Curious Popper's User said on Wed, 15 Jun 2022 at 17:30...
But then my question is: is it worse (as far as decay of the product) to leave unreacted alcohol mixed with the final product, or to have a little bit of Nitrous Acid produced after the alcohol has been used up? Seems like, by the time I see the fumes, some unreacted Nitrous Acid has already tainted the final product, but I could be wrong, I'm not a chemist. I have also read somewhere that unreacted alcohol left in with the final product accelerates decay.
Anonymous said on Wed, 15 Jun 2022 at 17:32...
The Italians used a great excess of sulfuric acid, but presumably, they used an "equimolar" amount of SN relative to the alcohol. So there wouldn't be any great excess of nitrous acid possible. Did they need that much acid and did they not neutralize it before drying? The document states they immediately dried it and sealed it. Perhaps, they thought any residual acid would not interfere with the GC measurements they were about to commence immediately.
Anonymous said on Wed, 15 Jun 2022 at 17:40...
I have been unable to find any online sources that definitely answer the question of which is better....residual alcohol remaining in the crude yield, or nitrous acid, which turns into nitric acid and nitrogen dioxide and perhaps other side products containing part of the alcohol molecule. It becomes impossible to answer the question in a home lab, without first being able to make a reasonably pure standard. Knowing one's target, the odor and effects, beforehand would be a great asset in determining what reaction factors seem to help or hinder.
At this point, I am pretty sure all the B-nitrite I've made has been less than good enough for a standard as it never smells like the Standard I once smelled.
The Professor said on Wed, 15 Jun 2022 at 17:45...
It sounds like you're off to a good start CPU. If you want support for the wiki, the subreddit PopperMakers is the place.
AFAIK, JJ no longer makes any Butyl's. Butyl is typically 10% more reactive than IsoAmyl (which is what JJ seems to be using these days, it probably depends on the country).
From that perspective, no irritation, very little aroma, all sound good, but the product should be quite noticeably more effective than JJ OTC stuff.
IT takes qa few runs under your belt to notice and fine tune things. your lab notes will be invaluable for identifying road blocks.
The entire thing is really a lesson in critical thinking. It's both fun, and boring.
The wiki answers the question you seem to have about whether to stop when the fumes come up.
Data logging (Rx control)
This is where the rubber meets the road. Data logging isn't as fun as making blends, but it is an essential first step in taking control of your reaction.
First, dig this link:. DIKW link
Processed data yields information
Processed Information yields knowledge
Processed knowledge yields wisdom
Processed wisdom yields vision
Everything starts with an intelligence problem (IP)
Your role in this, at first, should be in defining a procedure or set of runs intended to collect the data required to answer the IP. This involves, at first, data collection. Data collection, and only data collection.
You will charge your apparatus according to your previously established procedure, and then maintain and operate the apparatus, while collecting data for further processing. You will NOT attempt to 'save' a run that's going bad, or otherwise interfere with the run, just operate the apparatus and collect the data.
Once you have the reaction under control, your collected data will make more sense, and a history of your runs will provide priceless information
Guidance for kinetic control and thermodynamic control techniques (with the aim of steering the reaction toward product and away from ingredients) can be found here: Controlling the Products of Reactions
More info on equilibrium reactions is here: Principles of Chemical Equilibrium
I'm the third person involved in curating the wiki; the meat was there from the start by Popchef. I've just been adding the potatos (explanatory text) as questions come up on the forum. Joining the forum would be a great way to contribute to the future of the wiki.
The Professor said on Wed, 15 Jun 2022 at 17:49...
and of course, CPU, as soon as you started to express success with a proper method, Ken interjects with ANOTHER round of false speculation.
He'll blow so much bullshit your way if you let him.
Be calm in the knowledge that you are on your way, like so many makers before you, to realizing how dim, deceitful and dangerous his text is.
Curious Popper's User said on Wed, 15 Jun 2022 at 17:53...
My yield yesterday truly had no odor. And frankly, people are very poetic when describing poppers' smell (nutty with a touch of strawberry, citric with a touch of almonds) and, believe me, I've never bought a bottle of poppers that matched any of those descriptions. They all smell like solvent to me, the kind of stuff you'd throw on top of painted wood before beginning to strip the paint off. I was glad that what I made yesterday had no smell (lots of things that are volatile have no smell). I kept most of it in a sealed jar, and I plan to report what happens to it in this group in a week, to see if it preserved or decayed.
Anonymous said on Wed, 15 Jun 2022 at 17:55...
None of the data collecting matters much if one doesn't know their target compound well enough to identify it by BOTH odor and effects. Absent an analyzer, that offers objective data, one has to use one's nose and test the compound for its effects. Mixing nitrites only makes it that much more impossible to identify one's target. Then there is no known standard, because it's no longer a pure, singular compound.
The Professor said on Wed, 15 Jun 2022 at 17:56...
The PDF that ken refers to as the 'italian' method (we were all here when he was falling all over himself about it eh?) has a section describing the 'reference standard' that they made for further comparisons.
He's tried previously to pull his incorrect assumptions about that before; you're new, so he thinks he can bogle your mind similarly.
I think that's creepy.
Curious Popper's User said on Wed, 15 Jun 2022 at 18:00...
Thanks, Professor! I will definitely join the subreddit you mentioned. I went as far as to film the entire process yesterday, so as to review later the change in colors, the fumes, etc... Two things that are really beautiful to watch: when the drop of acid hits the NaNO2 layer, turns immediately dark blue on the yellow layer, and floats to find the alcohol above. And also when you remove the flask from the ice bath, and the dark blue and emerald green turn to clear and deep yellow. It's trully beautiful and pleasurable to watch. Not so much the toxic fumes, but one step at a time heheh.
Anonymous said on Wed, 15 Jun 2022 at 18:03...
@CPU....be very interested to hear what unfolds in a week. I bet it will have changed and probably not for the better. But who knows.....anything is possible with pot luck popper making. I am going to do a series of tests with argon gas, in darkness(foil) to see if this is the magic bullet. It's the only thing I have yet to try repeatedly.
Anonymous said on Wed, 15 Jun 2022 at 18:06...
@CPU.....yes ten years back, I remember one of my first reactions.....deep royal blue with a clear yellow layer on top. If only that meant something as far as purity of product and reproducibility.
The Professor said on Wed, 15 Jun 2022 at 18:08...
Ken's demands have no bearing on truth OR rerality.
REACTION CONTROL is the most important aspect of making, and he has failed to attain reaction control for 12 years. His OPINION that the aroma is a valuable indicator has been disproven as infinitum, yet he continues to chest thump lies at us.
Gee Ken, you don't post for days, THEN start assaulting ANOTHER maker (as you did with all of the makers that have joined PopperMakers from Poppersguide.
You have SOMEWHAT achieved your goal of stardom though eh? not in the way you imagine, but just think of ALL the people you have helped to make stronger, more pure, safer to prep and inhale product.
Just by being YOU.
The Professor said on Wed, 15 Jun 2022 at 18:18...
Deep royal blue is a visual indicator that the NaNO2 powder is still viable and makiing HNO2 with the acid. THAT's the value in the royal blue as an indicator.
the pictures in the wiki demonstrate this, and they also note that they are NOT what you should be experiencing during a prep.
Setting aside Ken's persistent fantasy about nitric acid, an optimal prep would create JUST enough HNO2 at a time for this very weak acid to saturate the alcohol with nitrite radicals.
That means a very pale blue bottom layer.
With slow stirring and dropping under the surface, the entire process is anerobic; HNO2 is created at the bottom (which isolated the parent alcohol from needless exposure to the very high concentration HCL.
The result is a very weak acid, HNO2, which anerobically mixes with the parent alcohol above it to produce the product.
Ken's babbling again
Anonymous said on Wed, 15 Jun 2022 at 18:24...
Literally, every source of SN I have purchased, and no matter how long I've had it, produces blue nitrous acid. So seeing blue doesn't seem to indicate much of value. What you would want to see is every molecule of nitrous acid combine with every molecule of alcohol WITHOUT anything else happening. So far I don't think human eyeballs are capable of seeing this.
The Professor said on Wed, 15 Jun 2022 at 19:06...
I know for a FACT that you were scooping your powder out of an unsealed plastic bag for years. I've experienced the lack of royal blue, when the nitrite is heavily infested with nitrate, so I KNOW you are lying again.
first, thanks for making me look so good lately; all I have to do is point to reality and makers FLEE from exposure to you.
second, why all the frantic, desperate attempts to pursuade every maker that comes along that YOU know what you are doing?
you CLAIM not to care what other people are doing, yet you attack every single post that involves a new maker, trying to fill their heads with thoughts that are false, erroneous, or lies?
as an aside; CPU shouldn't have stopped when he started to see brown gas; your assumption is incorrect, and sho2ws what little you've learned from 13 yrs of failure. Our makers know this
popperass said on Wed, 15 Jun 2022 at 21:41...
The only person attacking others is the Professor...sorry to say.
The Professor said on Wed, 15 Jun 2022 at 22:43...
hey there popperass; it's been a while. Strangte that you ONLY appear in topics involving Ken, and only in support of his misdirection and lies.
One might think that you are just another one of his alter-ego aka's,
popperass said on Thu, 16 Jun 2022 at 15:29...
I am going to stay clear cause I don't want to be a victim.
The Professor said on Thu, 16 Jun 2022 at 15:59...
Well, if the topic had been started by Ken, it will be filled with lies, cut and paste failures from the past, or some other nonsense, so, yeah, of you don't want fleas.....