N-butyl Nitrite Brews
Posted on Poppers Guide's Forum
Topic created by Anonymous
on Wed, 25 May 2022 at 15:46
Anonymous said on Wed, 25 May 2022 at 15:46...
I have made two 30 ml brews of N-butyl Nitrite, using technical grade butanol from Amazon.
The first brew, I used less acid. The second brew I used more.
Results: The one using more acid....about 38-40 mls per 30 mls alcohol, smelled better, less like the base alcohol and had much greater transparency after bottling. It looked exactly like a snow globe when swirling the bottom sentiment of Kcarb. The other got cloudy and turbid looking, though the Kcarb did eventually fall out.
Effects: After a 5 minute session, I got decent ass relax and overall good feeling and no sense of impending doom toxic overload. O2 Sat % dropped to 88. Heart rate around 90-100.
Odor.....very sweet and pleasant like a candy liquor used for a mixed drink.
Have no idea what the purity is. My nose isn't a gas analyzer.
Anonymous said on Wed, 25 May 2022 at 15:56...
The extra acid turns the yield green, which quickly turns to yellow when siphoned off. The crude nitrite therefore is very transparent dark yellow.
The one using 28-30 mls acid per 30 mls alcohol turns out slightly cloudy lighter yellow and never turns green with nitrous acid.
Anonymous said on Wed, 25 May 2022 at 15:59...
I cannot make any definite comparisons between n-amyl and n-butyl at this point because I just now made these butyl brews. I will evaluate them over time.
The Professor said on Wed, 25 May 2022 at 16:49...
This reminds me of the Amyl butyl mixes that Ken was making about 5 years ago?
If it matters to you, the turbidity thing is from un-reacted alcohol and water still in the mix, likely from dropping too quickly for the cooling bath set point (which will boil off reactants, leaving un-reacted alcohol.
Fix for that is too slow down the reaction. Best results come from making as cold as possible, and very slowly.
I prep at -12C, sand drop at just under 1ml/min.
The trick is to drop as slowly as possible (for a human, about 1 drop every 5 seconds) or buy a peristaltic pump (set and forget), and to buy the highest concentration HCL you can (37%; (higher concentrations of reactants decompose more slowly (HCL is very stable, but even more so when say high concentration)), and then solute it until the drops no longer generate any NO2 or foaming or temperature creep.
Also, since the butanol is slightly miscible with water, there will be waste water in the mix (cloudiness when shaken).
A SLIGHT excess of acid and powder establishes alcohol as the limiting reactant, and counter steers for you if you enter the corner too fast, while a colder set point allows the reaction enough to prefer product over ingredients and prevents the skid in the first place.
This is a combination of both kinetic sand thermodynamic controls, for which I've provided links in previous posts.
The Professor said on Wed, 25 May 2022 at 16:59...
When the yield turns green, that's a sign that the nitrite has been saturated with nitric oxide (it's not from nitrous acid (an intermediary in the prep, appearing as a royal blue in the water phase) or excess HCL (although excess HCL does help ensure useable HCL if you prep too hot or too fast); that's a good thing (and another example of how Ken has been purposefully ignoring common sense chemistry for years; I told him the same thing 8 years ago, and he just turned his magnetic stir bar up faster and louder).
The Professor said on Wed, 25 May 2022 at 17:10...
Third (to match Ken's tendency to make posts in triplicate for some reason)
Your report on the aroma being very sweet like a liqueur is not a good sign; that indicates acetates rather than nitrites.
Your report on oximeter readings is puzzling. A nominal human's body aims to keep blood oxygen saturation at 100%. This will vary without notice, to sometimes down to 95% with exertion (or just walking upstairs, depending on health).
Once says start setting below 95%, a body is aware of it, and exertion is noticeable.
88% oxygen saturation is the body in crisis; it'll try to pump blood was quickly as it can to get data up again. Knowing this, a body that's in crisis but can't muster any more than 100 beats per minute is in extreme crisis from both directions.
Anonymous said on Wed, 25 May 2022 at 18:24...
The instruction booklet that came with my Braun Pulse Oximeter states that methehemoglobemia can and will lead to misreading of the oxygen saturation. Some research has shown that the greater the level of dysfunctional hemoglobin in arterial blood, the less accurate these pulse readers are.
Anonymous said on Wed, 25 May 2022 at 18:29...
A yellow oily liquid with a pleasant odor. A mixture of isomers (n-butyl, sec-butyl and tert-butyl). Slightly soluble in water. Slightly less dense than water. Vapors are much heavier than air. Toxic by ingestion, mildly toxic by inhalation. Used to make fuel for jet airplanes.
The above is a description of butyl nitrite's odor. It doesn't say anything other than it's "pleasant". That's how I would describe it as well. Only I've gone a step further and called it candy sweet.
The Professor said on Wed, 25 May 2022 at 18:54...
Yes, OTC pulse oximeters don't read accurately when hemoglobin has been converted to methemoglobin. That doesn't change the fact that below 90% is high level of exertion, and in a healthy individual BPM would assist to try to compensate.
Aerobic exercise doesn't being days that low, and it is very much an exertion.
Rather than the above being a description of N-Butyl nitrite, it appears to be a description of a mixture of N-Butyl, sec-Butyl and tert- Butyl nitrites.
It's quite possible to prep a nitrite and accidently infest it with acetates; luckily they aren't very harmful, they contribute a sweet aroma but no desired effects; a side reaction.
Fully nitrosated poppers don't really have much of an aroma way all; ginger ale is very close.
NitRATes are used for boosting diesel fuel's combustion, not nitRITes, and not jet fuels.
The Professor said on Wed, 25 May 2022 at 18:56...
Typos a plenty;
Aerobic exercise doesn't bring sats that low
Anonymous said on Thu, 26 May 2022 at 15:52...
I made a fresh brew of NAN using old TCI one pentanol and did a trial session of it along with my NBN brews. I used Argon gas to top off the air space between tests.
This AM....no noticeable degradation of NBN odor. Still sweet and pleasant. Good ass relax and decent euphoria.
NAN had a nondescript odor, no bitterness. Quick ass relax, and potent, but nothing over the top. Wore off quickly.
Neither had any weird effects. The NBN seemed to provide a little more punch to the ass relax effect although it seemed slower to action and perhaps longer acting.
At this point, I can't call a favorite.
Anonymous said on Thu, 26 May 2022 at 16:02...
I am fairly confident, however, that adding excess acid is giving a markedly better product, across the various nitrites. IPN, NAN and now NBN. Hence, to go backwards to what I've tried over and over again would be insane. This is what is working for me...if something else works better for YOU, then go for it. Nobody is trying to stop you.
The Professor said on Thu, 26 May 2022 at 16:26...
I don't think anybody is going to argue with a 'slight molar excess' of acid and powder. That's a useful technique for many reasons.
The trouble comes when a maker tries to compensate for running the reaction too quickly for the cooling bath, and decides to increase that slight excess into a gross excess.
Rather than a nearly 30% excess (if you do that prep 3 times you've wasted enough acid to make another free batch), try dropping slower and reducing the cooling bath temperature.
This provides both counter steering against the skid, and lowering speed against the skid.
Results would be very noticeable improved potency and vanishingly low amounts of un-reacted alcohol; win-win all the way around, especially if you are older and don't want to waste heartbeats.
Charlie said on Fri, 27 May 2022 at 07:50...
I have dropped off this forum after getting my process sorted out with Prof's help starting here sometime last year. Prof's help was invaluable, accurate, honest and gracious. I never would have achieved some success without Prof's kind help. Thank you Prof!
After trying different alcohols, I am of the current opinion that n-butyl is my favorite. I prepare my nitrite still using the chest freezer method and a peristaltic pump. I start the preparation at -12C and it ends up around -10C. I follow the advice to go slow and keep it cold. This has worked really well for me. I do have to constantly remind myself to slow it down should I notice any concerning signs. I think this is the best advice I can give anyone just getting into homemade preps, especially anyone with little to no chemistry background. Don't rush yourself and stop if you seeing anything that isn't right. There is no rush in this process.
After inhaling the nitrite for long enough, I do get cyanosis. The more reactive nitrites just make it happen quicker. Amyl does not cause cyanosis, but I am disappointed quickly with amyl. Amyl doesn't pack the punch for my chemistry and I am left usually wanting more. I tried methylene blue for a while for cyanosis, but did not find enough benefit to continue, and it is an additional expense, especially for pharmaceutical grade and turns urine blue. I actually now see the temporary cyanosis as a sign that I created a decent nitrite.
I bottle the yield after drying 4-days on molecular sieves. I have been bottling using 10ml vials, activated alumina and some Kcarb and they tend to last about a month if they have not been opened. Opened vials only last several days before I notice some considerable weakness.
I still find my favorite method for dosing is using a drilled centrifuge tube with some rolled up paper towel inside. I soak the paper towel in a couple mls nitrite and it lasts for about 10 minutes before the paper towel is dry and needs to be replaced - maybe 15 minutes depending on how hard and how much I have inhaled. I love that I can bite the tube and moderate the amount of fresh air and nitrite that I get at the same time by changing my breathing from mouth to nose. This means no fiddling with bottles or cups and I can concentrate on other things. I also love that this method is hands-free and avoids the nose.
Charlie said on Fri, 27 May 2022 at 08:07...
As I have more preps under my belt, I have a little more perspective about some bad batches that I had at first. For anyone getting into this, I believe it is almost inevitable that you will have some duds, but learn from the experience and move on because you can make a good nitrite at home and you can comfortably know exactly what you're making. It takes time and experience so that you have a baseline to compare to. After almost a year, I feel that I am only now beginning to make something consistently good.
Some of the first batches made me either cough, wince or feel like death. There were many things wrong with these earliest batches, among them chiefly were unreacted alcohol and un-neutralized acid. I also found that 100% n-propyl was extremely toxic for my body. Once I overcame those challenges, my preparations do not cause any toxic side effects, such as precipitous drop in BP or coughing for days.
Anonymous said on Fri, 27 May 2022 at 14:00...
@Charlie....I always found IPN to be extremely toxic as well....UNTIL I tried the excess acid method at above subzero temps. That's when I finally got consistently good brews that weren't too toxic. I tried making IPN at 20F outdoor temps with ice bath included...and got a very scant and toxic yield. These were small brews. It shouldn't take hours of addition to make a small brew. There's no possible way to scale that timeline up.
The downside to IPN is the odor...it's pretty strong as it degrades...like magic marker.
16 mls 91%IPA to 20-21 mls 31.45% HCl is what worked for me. Super cold temps for IPN absolutely DO NOT work. I've tried it multiple times recently and in the past.
Anonymous said on Fri, 27 May 2022 at 14:01...
@Charlie....also....can you give a detailed description of odor and effects of n-butyl and n-amyl? I always try to.
Anonymous said on Fri, 27 May 2022 at 14:17...
@Charlie...when you swirl the popper fluid in the brown bottle, does it look like a Snow Globe...where the Kcarb looks like dry particles that quickly fall out and there's no cloudiness?
Anonymous said on Fri, 27 May 2022 at 14:58...
I tested my poured off NBN, now two days old with air exposure and argon in between openings.
It's still sweet and potent. Nothing bitter. Nice little prostate buzz the NAN didn't give. Didn't have any lingering weird effects after 5 minutes of testing. Yet, the NAN is a quick strong ass relaxer with milder odor. So still can't call this one.
The Professor said on Fri, 27 May 2022 at 16:14...
Nice to be hearing from you; I'm over the moon that you are getting a good ride now.
You can see that Ken is still up to his old tricks, but take heart that you are now making at a level that he has never experienced; in that context, his BS sounds so naive eh?
Meanwhile, Ken 'still can't call this one' , which is a bit surprising since he's done it several times before ( https://poppersguide.com/forum/12097 contains a quick summary of Ken's roller coaster of lies, deceit, repeat over his time here).
Charlie said on Fri, 27 May 2022 at 23:06...
The best way that I can explain (at least my latest) n-butyl nitrite is that it smells fresh. I have gotten so accustomed to the scent that I had to go smell the bottle again and see. I feel that I have become a little nose blind to it at this point. Maybe it smells a little minty? It is nothing overpowering as far as scent, not overly sweet or anything like that. It is pleasant, fresh and again somewhat nondescript. However, if I have been inhaling solo and my husband walks into the room, he can definitely smell what he calls "sex!" Guilty as charged! So my nitrite smells like "sex" - according to my husband.
As for amyl, unfortunately, it's been a while and I cannot remember much about the smell.
I do not recall any of my nitrites every being cloudy, especially recently. I do not swirl much and do not let any bottles go for more than a month. Yes, the Kcarb appears dry.
Recently, I have been filling the air space in my curing vial with glass marbles and this seems to work well. I find that it seems to expose more surface area of the molecular sieves because they are spread out more throughout the vial rather than being stacked in the bottom of the vial. I will definitely continue doing this. I'm just using some cheap glass beads that come in a mesh bag from Dollar Tree.
lizi said on Sat, 28 May 2022 at 05:20...
Profesor and anonymous could you both make a video of how you make your brews. Please I beg you. I would pay you for it.
Anonymous said on Sat, 28 May 2022 at 17:56...
@Charlie...thanks for the feedback. If it's working well enough, stick to it.
I just tested 20mls of NBN I made 3 days ago, covered with argon gas and put in frig. It smells sweet and pleasant with no hint of bitterness. Sweet odor is more like candy/fruit.
Effects are very good.....more of a fun kick than my NAN. Still haven't used it long enough to say if it's better overall than NAN. NAN does offer a quick strong ass relax and milder odor.
BUT...this is the FIRST time, I've made NBN and it's lasted 3 days and it's still very good. I just put Kcarb in the bottle and no MS4.
The Professor said on Sat, 28 May 2022 at 18:35...
the wiki is here:
the subreddit is named PopperMakers if you need support for the wiki.
a wiki is better than a video, in that, the prep is very sensitive to its environment, and the amount of saturation of the alkyl nitrite is gaussian instead of linear.
That means that a humans experience of, for example, a 50% saturated product (in which the human is expecting 50% of the effects), will NOT be perceived to have 50% of the effects.
take a look at, for example, the right hand chart at https://www.researchgate.net/figure/a-Comparing-the-I-exc-calculated-from-Gaussian-and-linear-distribution-functions-with_fig3_247153109
the dotted blue line is a linear response, and the solid red line is gaussian. Let's pretend that the linear line is what a human might be expecting, and the red line is the build up to a 100% saturated product (which follows a gaussian curve (at least the left side of a gaussian curve, because the saturation level peaks but does not descend)
Looking at the 50% points of the lines, turn your head to the left (or rotate the image 90 degrees right) and you'll notice that the linear plot is quite a bit above the gaussian plot. the linear plot is the amound of effects that a human is expecting, and the lower red plot is the actual saturation level (quite a bit lower)
This is one reason why some reviewers says a certain product 'does nothing' for them, while the SAME product might be reviewed by someone else as 'the best i've ever had' in that a minor change in saturation is making a huge difference in effects.
So, if I make a VIDEO in which I'm prepping at -12C and a drop rate of 1 ml/min, and use ratios of 1.00:1.05:1.10, and you follow that procedure, but your drip rate is slightly different, or your ratios are slightly different, then the RESULT is going to be quite a bit different than mine.
The wiki will teach you how to TUNE the reaction for yourself, your reactants (and the state they are in) and mine are not the same.
Anonymous said on Sat, 28 May 2022 at 22:10...
@Lizi.....there already are a bunch of YT videos on how to make alkyl nitrites. None of them say to use a temperature as low as -12C or 10F, but if that's what works for some people, then go for it. I do know for a fact that this low of a temperature does NOT work when making isopropyl nitrite. It doesn't give a yield. I don't know why. With amyl and butyl, it will probably give a yield. Whatever the purity of the nitrite, it should NEVER smell bitter, or acidic and should always have a strong ass relax. If it doesn't, best to pitch it.
I have found that using EXCESS acid and dripping it in last to the reaction pot composed of sodium nitrite and alcohol, both cold and surrounded by an ice bath produces a better product and a high yield. It gets rid of the weird and toxic effects that occur when using less acid. I assume the excess acid is forcing the reaction to completion, forcing nitrous acid to fully saturate the alcohol. Every single brew of isopropyl nitrite was toxic shit until I started using excess acid. So I know excess acid was a game changer with IPN and now it seems to be a game changer with butyl nitrite as well. I haven't tried it with isobutyl nitrite, but I assume it works with it as well.
30 mls alcohol to 38-40 mls 31.45% Muriatic acid (HCl)
22-23 grams food grade sodium nitrite
36 mls distilled water
It takes about 10-15 minutes to add all the acid, although a longer period might not hurt.
You absolutely have to neutralize the acid after it's done. Then you have to dry it and bottle it with inert gas like nitrogen or argon. There are various ways to neutralize the acid....plain cold distilled water, cold distilled water and brine and distilled water and brine/baking soda. I always end using brine to make the nitrite extra dry before I add in the drier powder.
The Professor said on Sat, 28 May 2022 at 23:18...
when done properly, prepping IsoPropyl Nitrite at -12C isn't much different from prepping any of the Amyl or Butyl isomers.
The problem is that Ken is expecting a Nitrite he can handle, and IsoP is 118% reactive, while what he can handle (n-Amyl nitrite) is 72% reactive.
I get high yield and purity when prepping IsoP at -12C, and yes, it is WAY over-the-top if you aren't in pristine health (being younger helps a lot).
Ken is confusing that high reactivity with toxicity, since his blood pressure drops so quickly and he's in distress, and AGAIN that is obviously what happens when you can handle 72% reactivity but decide you want to try 118% reactivity
Charlie was getting high yield at -12C as well; I remember when he first made it, his opinion was 'I've found it!', but within minutes his metabolism couldn't handle the excessive strength.
By contrast, Ken is making at much higher temperatures where the EQ constant of the prep is near 0.25. that's 25 steps forward and 75 steps backward for EVERY drop.
No wonder his product is infested with unreacted alcohol; he's trying to make an IsoP product that's just a TISH more reactive than n-Amyl nitrite, and that leads to unreacted alcohol (wasted heartbeats) and incomplete saturation of the nitrite
As mentioned above, trying to down-modulate the saturation percentage of any alkyl nitrite, in order to make it weaker, is a losing game. First, the difference between your body's linear expectations and the gaussian nature of saturation are not compatible, and second, an incompletely saturated product is much less stable than a fully saturated product (just as 37% concentration HCL is more stable than 22% HCL).
So, ken is trying to make an IsoP popper that's still within his tolerance (n-Amyl is only 72% and IsoP is 118%, that's a 46% difference!) and is doing so by making a partially saturated product (that is infested with unreacted alcohol and won't remain as stable as long as a fully reacted product.)
The REASONABLE way to do it is to fully nitrosate the product and THEN adjust it's reactivity down to 80% or so (which he can handle) by turning it into a gel.
Much less aroma, higher purity, higher stability all come from doing it the right way.
Charlie said on Sun, 29 May 2022 at 19:26...
Prof. was right about my n-propyl prep experience at the end of last year I believe. It was amazing at first and remember thinking and writing at the time that I felt I found the holy grail. I was flying so high and everything was great. Then it wasn't. I believe that it was too reactive for my body (metabolism) and reality sunk in. I used the method in the Wiki with my chest freezer and peristaltic pump and it was truly blissful at first.
I am very interested to try a mix of n-propyl and amyl (iso is what I have on hand).
Prof., are any of the big-name fumed silicas ok to use, such as Cabosil?
The Professor said on Sun, 29 May 2022 at 19:32...
Sure, it's all practically the same
Anonymous said on Mon, 30 May 2022 at 11:48...
@Charlie.....my mission all along since 2010, has been to discover what Joe Miller was selling right before he died, because that's the only period in which I bought poppers and liked discovered I liked them. I have tried no other drugs and don't want to. I am very conservative that way. I don't smoke or drink either...never have..never will.
The poppers I bought from Joe right before his death were all very similar regardless of the label. I sniffed them directly from the bottle frequently. One had to sniff frequently in order to sustain effects. There was never any fear that of toxic overload sniffing repeatedly directly from the bottle....over and over again, which I did many times.
Regarding the odor of your NBN.....I paid 80 bucks to buy 25mls of NBN from Sigma Aldrich. I've stated before.....when I left it open in my bedroom for just a few minutes, upon reentering my room, I immediately smelled a very very distinct odor of a freshly deodorized lockerroom. It was an immediate thought without any question. It was NOT a bad odor.....it was like a room deodorizer odor. So....my guess is that when making NBN at home, if you don't smell the lockerroom odor, it's not pure enough.
Anonymous said on Mon, 30 May 2022 at 11:52...
Someone stated that Butyl Nitrite's first brand label was "locker room". I don't doubt it because when it's pure, this is exactly what it smells like when left open in a room.....not smelling directly from the bottle mind you, but when left to permeate a room. My Sigma NBN then left a very sweet banana odor residue in my bottle. That's another odor I lack with home brew. I've only smelled banana once in years of making poppers at home.
The Professor said on Mon, 30 May 2022 at 17:18...
Ken is lying to us all again (no surprise).
Back at his lair (PoppersPlace (now defunct)) he ran a topic in the forum about making. Same stuff as now, OMG followed by failure X days later.
At one point, with a recent success that had him over confident (we've all seen it here too btw) he started asking about how to source 10ml bottles and getting all cocky. His missoipn statement at that time was to 'know everything three is to know about alkyl nitrites, and to bring back the good stuff to the market (along with praise and maybe even a parade (in his imagination, idk)
He ended up abandoning his own forum, as everyone (who were having great successes btw) was bogged down trying to troubleshoot HIS failures.
NOW he's an altruistic saint putting his own body in danger as a warning to others?
He seems very proud of his 'I don't take any drugs' statement that he declares, repeatedly, in some sort of reflection strategy. It matters not at all, the falsehoods, lies, deceit are native to his brain.
for the umpteenth time, the aroma of alkyl nitrites, when pure and NOT stabilized with pyridine, have little to no odor at all. The butyric acid that's present in most commercial preps is not a detrimental contaminant (it just imparts an odor that increase in strength as it ages).
ONE of the benefits of prepping at -12C is that you can easily filter out the butyric acid solids. The aroma decreases considerable, to practically nothing, and STAYS very low for the lifetime of the bottle.
Ken is chasing is tail by trying to isolate aromas as indicators, but he's just confusing his nose with various amounts of unsaturated base alcohols from prep to prep.
Ken, you tried your best
Anonymous said on Wed, 1 Jun 2022 at 14:59...
If only the Professor could have offered some legitimate clues as to how a each nitrite should smell.....he might have been useful.
But all he does is attack, confuse and claim -12C is the key to everything. He has no sincere interest in discovering the exact properties, odors and effects, of each particular nitrite. That's been my only interest from the beginning. And he has been useless in that regard.
The Professor said on Wed, 1 Jun 2022 at 15:06...
You've been eating your time for over a decade with your nonsense; that's not fault, and scattering your abusive posts only serves to pass people off.
Great way to win friends
The Professor said on Mon, 20 Jun 2022 at 16:24...
readers that are new to this forum probably haven't experienced the lying, deceitful, willful ignorance that is Ken (aka anonymous, aka popperass, aka madeplentypoppers, aka NitriteSpecialist aka PopperExpert, aka PopperMaker, aka kenjoneslee, aka John Mulligan, etc.
He'll fight his wrong ideas to the ground, hasn't attained control of this reaction 13 years, and is wasting everyone's time.
another big yawn with no new content, a dollop of lies, with a dash of baloney
Those interested in the REAL science can always refer to the wiki, and join PopperMakers (a subreddit) if you need support for it.)