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Seeking the best recipe!

Posted on Poppers Guide's Forum

Topic created by Mixologist
on Wed, 4 May 2022 at 05:28

Mixologist said on Wed, 4 May 2022 at 05:28...

Please share your best ratio recipe based on the following:

IPA 91%
HCL 31.45 (pool acid)
DUDA FG SN

Thanks in advance!!!

PoppersBear said on Thu, 5 May 2022 at 03:04...

Hi I love IPN and have made it for 10 years now.
Iv never had bad effects unlike store brought stuff.

The amount of Acid can change depending on well almost everything
I usually just keep adding pouring it in till the IPN starts to come up all yellow and starts to smell ( love making it and being high on it at the same time if you don't want to be high use a organic vapour respirator )and keep pouring small amounts till there's no more reaction might use 200- 300 ml or more. I don't use super cold just about 59F or 15c so room temp in some places it never makes gas or anything bad.
I also add the SN to the IPA
Water in my findings doesn't make any difference but adding the hcl and ipa straight to the sn is not good.

The way almost everyone says doesn't really work dripping the acid in doesn't work and having things super cold doesn't work.

As iv done IPN for years iv found you really have no limit of HCL in in fact iv found it gives less side effects and tends to complete the reaction helps removal of contamination. There comes a point where it's wastefull but once you don't have new IPN forming stop.

Same goes for IPA I use 99% AR grade with an expiration date
And same goes for my SN.

AR grade is Analytical Reagent which is almost the best GR is the highest but youl not find much that's GR grade
Iv made it with diy store stuff in the past and the results are 70-80% as good as the AR Reagents.

The IPA is the most critical part here good fresh makes the best ipn your IPA should have a very strong almost popper vapor when you open it for the first time acid % is important but quality is not so important and SN amount can depend on age and Grade but to answer you question.
I use
100-130ml of IPA
70-100 Grams of SN
150-300ml of HCl around 32% not more and not less

Wash in salt with water then bicarbonate soda and water you loose a bit but unwashed is nasty and degardes superfast even with AR Grade.
Use a Sep Funnel much easier.

i put just a little anhydrous potassium Carbonate or magnesium sulfate or sodium carbonate in your popper bottle I found it does a good job at keeping it dry ...
I saved all my popper bottles from when I brought to compete against my own and decant it to them.
I'm no expert but iv made a shit load of ipn
And I know what works and what doesn't.
And I'm also trying new ways and open to trying new things.
Have fun and find out what works with what you have.
Amounts to be exact are totally depend on age and grade.
Hope this is helpful to anyone looking to make IPN

Vicurious said on Thu, 5 May 2022 at 03:34...

What is SN? Sulfur nitride? Holy electronegativity, batman!

Anonymous said on Thu, 5 May 2022 at 13:23...

Thanks PoppersBear.....all that you have discovered is similar to what I have learned when making IPN in the last 6 months. Super cold doesn't work. And the amount of acid required, to complete the reaction, seems to be higher than one would expect.

I have switched to n-amyl nitrite in the past few weeks for a couple of reasons. One....my IPN degrades to a very sweet, almost unpleasant odor, which I don't like. Two...when making NAN, I found that when I add the acid last instead of to the alcohol directly, I get a better product. Perhaps adding the acid to the alcohol corrupts the alcohol. Three....I prefer the slightly minty, menthol odor of the amyl. I have added the acid last, drip by drip, to the cold SN/alcohol/water with ice bath. The acid is room temp(60-70F) and it seems to work at that temp. With the IPN, I was adding the acid to the 91% IPA, which is 9% water. Perhaps, the extra water helped to prevent degradation of the IPA upon addition of acid. But still, the IPN might be better if I added the acid last to the reaction pot...as I have described when making NAN.

Anonymous said on Thu, 5 May 2022 at 13:28...

I would also add that NAN seems less potent than IPN, which means it may require near constant whiffing to sustain effects. But the effects seem more pleasant to me overall. They seem to build and then wear off without any noticeable after effects.

I haven't made enough "good" butyl nitrite to comment on it, nor isobutyl, except to say I experienced massive variation in both odor and effects with IBN.

Mixologist said on Fri, 6 May 2022 at 15:52...

Great input PB, thanks!!!

Anonymous said on Fri, 6 May 2022 at 15:56...

I tested my 48 hours old NAN, made from fresh one pentanol...and it's very potent, smells good and has great effects. I like it a lot.

The Professor said on Fri, 6 May 2022 at 22:32...

I bet just about every US citizen took chemistry in high school. I remember learning about reversible reactions and equilibrium back then; I bet others remember that too.

The gist; reversible reactions have a forward (desired) reaction rate, and a reverse(undesired) reaction rate.

The rate of reaction changes with temperature and atmospheric pressure. At a certain point, the forward and reverse reactions are happening at the same rate; an equilibrium is established. In this way, a sliding scale (from favoring yield to favoring ingredients) can/has been carried out and is called an equilibrium constant.

It's kind of neat, in that for a desired reversible reaction, one can undergo the prep in environments that favor yield.

The equilibrium constant for liquid phase ion swap that results in Alkyl nitrites has an equilibrium constant of roughly 0.5 at 25C.

What does that mean? Well if I'm the baby killing (or eating, I'm not sure) monster that spews lies, let's check on what the khan academy has to say about it
"
K is very large, ~1000 or more, we will have mostly product species present.
​
K is very small, ~0.001 or less, we will have mostly reactant species present.
​
K is in between 0.001 and 1000, we will have a significant concentration of both reactant and product species present.

Exothermic reversible reactions (like Alkyl nitrite prep) have an equilibrium constant that increases as temperature decreases. Common advice there is to undergo the prep at the lowest temperature possible

Since the prep is soaking in a solvent with a melting point of 0C, you are limited in how low you can go before the ion bath freezes over.

Every Alkyl nitrite has a very low K at or near room temperature. Every Alkyl nitrite has a higher K at lower temperatures.

If there is a 'downside' to undergoing the prep at such low temps, it's that the reaction rate has slowed down so much that extra feel time may be required for the prep (I haven't prepped ethyl or methyl nitrite, that would be crazy dumb, but they have similar constants and favored conditions for yield).

If you get no yield from IsoPropyl alcohol at the limits of temp (About -12c) is that the reaction has stalled due to lack of activation energy. It requires very little to get it going, and the exothermic reaction of HCL and NaNO2 should provide ample energy to start the reaction.

UNLESS you have chosen to dilute the HCL to prevent NO2 gas evolution. Then, it's possible that the reaction will stall. The fix? Don't adapt your existing procedure based on ratios that you think 'work' at another temperature.

Similarly, the idea that started out as a 'Slight molar excess' has now become 25% excess or more with the idea that this somehow 'pushes the reaction to the right'. Which is nonsense. Interested fellows can learn how it really works at Khan academy (free btw).

That idea comes from the truth that the heat generated by HCl hitting NaNO2 boils off some of both reactants; unless that loss is replaced there will be less nitrous acid to satisfy the alcohol and yield will not be potent.

Higher temps would require higher and higher excess of both reactants, but casual preppers don't seem to be too concerned about the NaNO2.

The order of addition: if you drop acid into nitrite and alcohol at un-preferred temps (not how you do it or how I do it, but what the reactions equilibrium constant yells you it wants), you'll typically get a of of NO2 gas here and there. Even with careful dropping and diluted HCL.

Remember that the solvent here is water, and the gas, NO2 is soluble in water. Every of of NO2 evolves through the water and escapes to atmosphere.

If, however, you drop nitrite into acidified alcohol, under the same conditions, the NO2 stays trapped in the reaction vessel (that slightly caramel color that develops).

It's still an undesired reaction and is still wasting reactants to this side reaction.

A PREFERRED embodiment (by the numbers not by opinion) favors product over reactants, and you need to prep as cold as possible to get K to be higher.

Both Khan academy and Chemistry libretexts support this assertion.

The industrial manufacture of ammonia is a good example of how to manipulate the environment of an exothermic, positive pressure reaction to maximize desired products

https://chem.libretexts.org/Courses/Howard_University/General_Chemistry%3A_An_Atoms_First_Approach/Unit_6%3A_Kinetics_and_Equilibria/Chapter_15%3A_Chemical_Equilibrium/Chapter_15.6%3A_Controlling_the_Products_of_Reactions

Anonymous said on Fri, 6 May 2022 at 22:48...

That is FAR too much information to be in Joe Miller's yellow notebook. What was the ACTUAL recipe? We simply will never know.

Anonymous said on Sat, 7 May 2022 at 16:32...

None of the theory matters when you have brewers who have experienced that too low of temps when making IPN results in a tiny yield.

Also, when an equilibrium has been reached, changing one of the conditions will help change or move the reaction to the product A change in the reaction's conditions could be adding more of one reagent, perhaps stirring more, perhaps changing the temps. It's NEVER just one possibility.

Anonymous said on Sat, 7 May 2022 at 16:36...

What are 3 things that can shift the equilibrium?
Only three types of stresses can change the composition of an equilibrium mixture: (1) a change in the concentrations (or partial pressures) of the components by adding or removing reactants or products, (2) a change in the total pressure or volume, and (3) a change in the temperature of the system.Jun 5, 2019

Anonymous said on Sat, 7 May 2022 at 16:52...

Example:

How will an increase in temperature affect the following equilibrium?

PCl3(g) + Cl2(g) PCl5(g) H = -92.5 kJ

Solution

In this equilibrium, the forward reaction (to form phosphorus pentachloride) is exothermic; the reverse reaction (to consume phosphorus pentachloride) is endothermic. An increase in temperature favors the endothermic reaction, and the equilibrium will shift to the left to absorb the added energy and produce more phosphorus trichloride.

The above example shows what temperature changes do to exothermic reactions, such as alkyl nitrite synthesis. It states raising the temps once equilibrium has been reached will favor the reaction moving back towards the reactants. BUT, this is just an example when ONLY the temps have been changed regarding endothermic/exothermic reactions. If the temps are held steady, via cooling, after equilibrium has been reached, then adding more acid will shift the reaction to form more product.

The Professor said on Sat, 7 May 2022 at 17:07...

Anon asking about post-it note.

Joe Miller wasn't a chemist; he inherited a pre existing product line. The post it now seems to exist, but can it be much more than an overview or general ion flow diagram?

Back at poppersplace, more than a decade ago now, there was a member who was an employee at his factory. He was an assembly line worker, not a chemist, and his party of the assembly involved adding the aroma tablets to each variant and something else I can't remember, but had to do with bottling.

He said the product coming out of the line was super cold.

The Professor said on Sat, 7 May 2022 at 17:55...

Anonymous dating theory doesn't matter.

This isn't theory, it's a roadmap to controlling this type of chemical reaction.

Yes, it is possible to stall the reaction when you are counting in the heat generated by NaNO2 and HCL.

I'm somewhat just repeating a previous post here, but at -12C there's very little free energy roaming around. The reaction has a required minimum energy to get started (roughly 45kcal/mol). That part doesn't change with temperature, BUT there are alterations typically being made at 0C, room temp or similar preps to control NO2 gas evolution. things like diluting the acid to 22% or less. That technique lowers the energy being released with each drop and reduces.

The same energy reduction techniques that prevent NO2 liberation when prepping at 0C may now be stalling the reaction.

Even full strength drops of 37% HCL coming down at about 1ml per minute will not generate gas at -12C, and the reaction needs some source of energy for that startup.

I hope that makes sense, I'm recovering from some vintage influenza A right now, I may not be processing clearly

The Professor said on Sat, 7 May 2022 at 18:23...

Anonymous talking about reaching equilibrium.

The other methods like drop rate and ratios will add tension to the system, to relieve that tension, a new equilibrium shifts the existing equilibrium slightly, one way or another. That's kinetic control, and I don't think anyone wants to take days to prep a product under true equilibrium conditions. It could be done. I don't think I'm patient enough. Prepping at -12C already slows the reaction rate considerably.

What I did (I'm cheap i guess)
I was prepping at 0C, as most literature mentions (only a few write-ups for preps below 0C are out there,)
I was getting good yield in the high 90s, and potency seemed fine. Stability was as good as it seems to get, etc

Gas chromatography machines are expensive to maintain, but samples can be sent out for testing. It won't cost you a car, maybe a cell phone.

I was surprised to see that I still had 3% un-reacted alcohol in there.

While playing around with butyric acid acid (a known contaminant) I saw that it's melting point is somewhere around -6C. Butyric is not repugnant at such low concentrations, but I thought if I could solidify it by freezing it, I could filter it out mechanically.

That worked, but an unexpected benefit of going so cold was that my un-reacted alcohol jumped to less than 1% (which is very clean) and that meant the saturation of the yield was higher too.

As it turned out, those fairly impressive gains had more to do with prepping at a more appropriate temperature than having the ability to sequester butyric acid.

But hey, I'll take it

The Professor said on Sat, 7 May 2022 at 18:40...

Anonymous with examples of equilibrium shifts.

I guess one could undergo a prep to achieve an equilibrium. It would take days, but it's possible.

And yes, at equilibrium, there's a balance between reactants and products that can be shifted a bit one way or another.

This prep doesn't do that, and the Khan academy and chem library like I posted don't demand that either.

You might have heard of equilibrium reactions from earth science in high school or something similar, and learned how to shift the balance to and fro (the stuffi was talking about earlier, where you are talking about a sytem at your equilibrium.

For example, something like how many pounds of a certain marsh gas exist at equilibrium.

That's not this. That idea mentions the term equilibrium and this one utilizes equilibrium constant.

One idea doesn't make any difference until the system has stabilized (which takes days for Alkyl nitrites)

The other idea says to control a reaction towards product you should prep in an environment that favors yield.

Two similar, but different, ideas.

The Professor said on Sun, 8 May 2022 at 16:48...

Quick trip report (active ingredient influenza A):

I'll be 60 in July. My resting heart rate is 76. In my youth, I was an athlete. In my 20-40s. I was very fit and active. Now I'm less fit.

Saturation is typically 100. When ill it flips around to 95 or so.

I recently had a chance to do some comparisons. I was so deleted of energy reserves that I couldn't hold my arms up for more than a minute or so.

If I forced it, my sats would drop and heart rate increase.

At 95% my heart rate was 106 but I didn't notice it.

If I held until my sats dropped i found that the cliff edge for me is at 92% saturation, which shot my heartrate up to 136.

So, not being under the influence, just being sick enough to get into the lower saturations, I can handle things without distress down to about 93% . After that, my pulse rate goes to136 or above and I definitely notice that I'm suffocating.

Maybe those are my lucky numbers.

While exposed to a butyl/sec-butyl blend, long session (3 plus hours) the lowest my sats have been is 93%. That's just about my limit for reactivity for a long session, adding tert-butyl or using more sec-butyl raises the nitrite strength a few points, but the brain won't enjoy it if it's in distress.

sniffonthego said on Tue, 10 May 2022 at 15:49...

That is great info, thanks to the creator! Cheers Jack!

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