Makers: don't worry about Nitric Acid as a possible side-reaction or degradation product

Topic created by The Professor
on Sun, 25 Jul 2021 at 19:27

The Professor said on Sun, 25 Jul 2021 at 19:27...

The self proclaimed 'expert' in this forum claims that Nitric acid is a possible side-reaction or contaminant in the preparation of Alky Nitrites.

He's even gone so far as to call me a fool, because I stipulate that it is NOT possible in this reaction. (see: http://poppersguide.com/forum/11556 for more details)

Many of you may have heard of the Dunning-Kruger effect; it was in the news recently because it fits the activities and beliefs of Donald Trump to a T.

Anyway, the idea is that stupid people tend to think they are brilliant. This is due to a combination of not knowing what they DON'T know about a subject, and un-earned over-confidence in their abilities.

Take, for example, Nitric acid as a decomposition or side-reaction in the two phase liquid based preparation of Alkyl Nitrites.

This forum is littered with posts where the specialist (or one of his AKA's) claimed to have 'washed the nitric acid build up out of the nitrite and it improved.

You can see from the above hyperlink, that we're dealing with a heavy dose of Dunning-Kruger with this one.

I explained to him (and he denies it's truth, to the point of calling me a fool), and he'd rather believe the world works according to his imagination.

YES, the chemical formula that he read said that NO2 and H2O (nitric oxide and water) can yield HNO3 (nitric acid), but what he fails to understand, repeatedly, is that the specific heat of formation required to do that (117 kJ/mol) is just not present in the two phase liquid preparation. The nitric acid preparation happens at about 9 times atmospheric pressure and 500 or so Kelvin.

His riposte, that 'acid rain' happens, is laughable.

Yes, acid rain happens. Why? becauue a square meter of atmosphere is bombarded by at least 1 kilojoules of solar radiation every second in full daylight.; a cloud that's larger than 100sq meters, and saturated with both water vapor and NOx WILL have enough energy to form (at least partially) Nitric acid.

Again, when you point your finger, you have three more pointing back at yourself.

This member's entire library consists of falsehoods, outright lies and mis-comprehensions

Billy said on Sun, 25 Jul 2021 at 20:29...

Sayre's law!

Innocent bystander said on Mon, 26 Jul 2021 at 03:03...

>> YES, the chemical formula that he read said that NO2 and H2O (nitric oxide and water)

That's nitrogen dioxide and water. HUGE difference. Off the top of my head, NO2, O2, and H2O with O2 in excess will absolutely produce HNO3. There are a lot of ways to get HNO3. Not to vindicate an ignorant flamer or anything. He DOES NOT KNOW what he is talking about. But there are dozens of NxOy reactions that can happen. Check out some chemistry or pharma textbooks from your friendly university if you get a chance. That information is not available on the Internet anymore.

Yeppers, Trump is such an IDIOT. The KGB re-formed after not existing for a quarter century to put him in office the first time. CNN told me so. Biden won by 50 million votes. Otherwise, they wouldn't have stopped vote counting in half a dozen states simultaneously, thrown millions of fake ballots into the mix when Dominion's algos couldn't keep up with Trumps landslide, and restarted the counting in the early hours of the morning while everyone else was asleep. Keep drinking the Kool-Aid. You'll need a lot of pure IBN to counter its effects.

heterozygote said on Mon, 26 Jul 2021 at 04:12...

https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2003/CP/b208564j#!divAbstract

Toby said on Mon, 26 Jul 2021 at 16:10...

Nitritespecialist is sharing his knowledge (which I'm sure he'd admit is tentative info based on the info he has) and I expect that much of what he says is true.

He is adding data to the equation. I don't see the need for such hostility.

The Professor said on Mon, 26 Jul 2021 at 17:31...

@Toby:

admitting he might be mistaken is one thing; doubling down on a lie is another.

he does this constantly

The Professor said on Mon, 26 Jul 2021 at 17:43...

@Heterozygote:

that article seems to be primarily discussing HNO2 evolution; it mentions incidental HNO3 as surface adsorbed.

I'm, not claiming that a few molecules of what they are calling surface HNO3 won't develop, I'm saying that there's a difference between "disassociates" and "disproportionates"

he is reading that

3 NO2 + H2O → 2 HNO3 + NO

and this is true IF H2O disassociates into H and O.

I don't have problems with my tap water disassociating into Hydrogen and oxygen, maybe its just me.

change that to

3 NO2 (g) + H2O (l) → 2 HNO3 (aq) + NO (g) (ΔH = −117 kJ/mol)

and it becomes more clear that H2O must disproportionate for any meaningful quantity of HNO3 to develop.

The Professor said on Mon, 26 Jul 2021 at 17:45...

random text strokes, i don't know why, apologies

The Professor said on Mon, 26 Jul 2021 at 17:46...

3 NO2 (g) + H2O (l) results in 2 HNO3 (aq) + NO (g) (delta H = 117 kJ/mol)

The Professor said on Mon, 26 Jul 2021 at 18:00...

@Innocent bystander: brain glitch on my part, sorry I misspoke. I might have said that Nitrogen dioxide and water (NO2 and H2O) won't evolve meaningful quantities of nitric acid (HNO3) unless in the presence of excess O2, in which case some molecules of what the other article calls "surface adsorbed HNO3)" may be present, in short term, as they proceed to fall apart; 4HNO3 becomes 2H2O + 4NO2 + O2