Lack of expected psychoactive effect leading to dangerous overuse

Topic created by Billy
on Sat, 27 Nov 2021 at 10:53

Billy said on Sat, 27 Nov 2021 at 10:53...

Following on from the other thread.... I recently used/abused poppers for the first time in four months. N-Butyl this time. I did not drink alcohol or use any other substance. But I kept on hitting the poppers on and off during a six-hour session. I don't know how many hits in total, maybe 20 or 30. I had a pulse oximeter by me so I could keep an eye on how my blood oxygenation was doing.

The thing is - as we know from stories about Covid patients - your blood oxygenation can be dangerously low and you can still feel fine and carry out everyday tasks. During the session I'd go and make a cup of coffee, have a snack, etc. Then get back to it.

I'm not going to tell you the lowest reading I got with the pulse oximeter but it was very very low. Stupidly low.

I think that I was remembering/expecting some kind of trippy/psychoactive effect from the n-butyl and I was not getting it, was partially responsible for me to keep on hitting it. And that shows I was kinda misunderstanding what poppers do. They don't give you the sexual trippiness that you hope for. Instead they lower your blood oxygenation and loosen you up. But sexy lusty trippiness? Not most of the time.

I poured the poppers down the sink.

Nitritespecialist said on Sat, 27 Nov 2021 at 13:23...

This demonstrates the spectrum of effects that alkyl nitrites can have dependent upon purity and any number of possible impurities. I believe all poppers, good and bad, will lower O2 levels, but that the bad ones will do it faster and for longer. The same goes for low blood pressure. The bad ones will cave blood pressure very quickly, which is not conducive to life, much less a lust filled burst of energy. Good poppers that give a burst of sex charged energy are more like "adrenaline" in a bottle. They not only noticeably increase heart rate, but they increase one's perceived energy level. They will probably increase breathing as well. The bad ones lower O2 a lot, lower BP a lot, increase heart rate, but lack the adrenaline pump(euphoric RUSH). The worst poppers are more like "death" in a bottle, the polar opposite of "euphoric rush".

Topper said on Sat, 27 Nov 2021 at 13:23...

Yes but you will be getting more soon because you love them

Billy said on Sat, 27 Nov 2021 at 13:37...

Yes that's very well described, Nitritespecialist.

I did not get that "OMG I'm gonna cum" feeling, in fact cumming was difficult which is why the session went on so long. I wasn't paying much attention to my dick, just to my ass, and I can't cum from that alone.

Okay I will tell you, my worst stats reading taken seconds after an inhale was oygenation of 80, heartbeat of 86. That is really really low, any lower and there's a risk of brain damage etc. And yes the general effect was putting me in a state of lethargy, not energized!

Fortnately stats are back to 97/57 now.

Billy said on Sat, 27 Nov 2021 at 13:38...

I have never tried measuring blood pressure during a session, I don't have the equipment but maybe a good thing to have in anyway.

Billy said on Sat, 27 Nov 2021 at 13:40...

I can feel my lips have cracked in the past couple of days and I was reaching for a tube of lip-balm that I knew I had but hadn't used in months.

Probably cracked lips are side-effect of the poppers binge?

The Professor said on Sat, 27 Nov 2021 at 14:31...

Pulse oximeters beam two lights through your fingertip: one red light and one infrared light. Blood containing lots of oxygen absorbs more infrared light and lets more red light pass through it.

Alkyl nitrites change how hemoglobin binds to oxygen, which will reduce your oxygen saturation, and the change in hemoglobin reflectivity means that the pulse oximeters typically read lower than actual sat levels.

There's not much value to an alarmingly low reading when it is guaranteed to be wrong.

Billy said on Sat, 27 Nov 2021 at 16:34...

I'm not sure if I fully understand your point, The Professor - though that may be because my brain is starved of oxygen!

Let's say I actually had Covid and my pulse oximeter gave me a reading of 90/100. So in that case, the reading would be correct?

But if I got the same reading of 90 after half a dozen hits of poppers, you're saying the reading wouldn't be correct?

Because although alkyl nitrites reduce your oxygen saturation, at the same time they don't really?!!??

Billy said on Sat, 27 Nov 2021 at 17:54...

Also, last time I used poppers back in July, I would be writing handwritten notes during the session between hits about what videos I'd watched and how I was feeling.

This time I tried it but I was pretty much too f--ked and didnt write much.

This shows I was really in a reduced state of alertness/consciousness.

The Professor said on Sat, 27 Nov 2021 at 18:01...

alkyl nitrites do reduce blood oxygen saturation; they do this by altering the hemoglobin molecule so that it doesn't bind with O2 anymore. The change also effects hemoglobin's reflectivity.

Since a pulse oximeter works by measuring the absorption and reflection of infrared and visible light, the use of alkyl nitrites interferes with a pulse oximeter's accuracy.

e.g. if the reading due to alkyl nitrite use has dropped to 80% sat, your sat is probably 85 or so; still not nominal, but a not as low as the oximeter reads.

Billy said on Sat, 27 Nov 2021 at 21:27...

Thanks for the explanation, Prof!

Fwiw, the bottle was the Golden Bone-rrr n-butyl from Goldencock. No negative comment intended on the bottle, which I'm sure could be great for someone else in a different context, especially sex with a partner.

I was setting myself up for nothing more than a misery/anxiety wank anyway, but frankly I'd had a better time a week earlier just on a red wine hangover. With these poppers I hit them so hard that I lost too much of myself and it wasn't fun.

Also although I don't take any drugs, I know I'd have had a trippy-euphoric session if I'd started off with a spliff and a glass of fizz, like Toby recommends. That would have been more intense and euphoric.

Once again though I'm reminded that poppers are a lazy way to try to get sexual kicks, especially if you're aged 30+ or worse 40+ and on your own. Better off putting a bit of effort in and doing things that are actually difficult (joining a gym, finding a partner....) rather than going for these low-energy negative kicks...

Nitritespecialist said on Sun, 28 Nov 2021 at 17:19...

@Billy....my O2 levels as measured by a finger gauge have been lower than normal too....after hitting poppers. I know this because I've gone to Dr. appointments shortly after hitting some poppers and the aides tell me it's lower than normal and they always look puzzled.

You mentioned butyl nitrite as being suspect. I've already stated repeatedly that butyl nitrite does and can have horrible side effects, based upon lots of home brew and a single testing of Sigma Aldrich's 95% n-butyl nitrite. LRM in BC, Canada have stated n-butyl nitrite is hard to make and I can easily vouch for that. Sigma's butyl had to be washed and neutralized before I got rid of the wretched toxic effects and then I was able to experience the expected adrenaline rush.

I've also stated repeatedly, that with hundreds of home brew amyl nitrite, I never once experienced the most horrid possible effects of n-butyl or even isobutyl and certainly not isopropyl nitrite, which is the absolute worst.

Nitritespecialist said on Sun, 28 Nov 2021 at 17:26...

I have relentlessly tried to state my experience with the various nitrites because there is so much confusion and lack of information regarding them. There are certainly no studies correlating the various nitrites, and their exact composition with all the entire spectrum of possible effects, from very good to very bad. The Professor only mentions the possible bad effects, especially with regards to the butyl group as a footnote, whereas I think the symptoms you have experienced along with the ones I have are VERY significant and should be emphasized, and not hidden in a footnote.

Billy said on Sun, 28 Nov 2021 at 19:10...

Thanks for your view, Nitritespecialist. I'm feeling burn in my lungs today.

Yet I don't think another formula is the answer either. As I had really awful side-effects from the pentyl / isopentyl nitrites, in particular 'Radikal Rush' and 'Titanium' in the aluminium bottles.

The side-effects were different, it was more that they triggered severe anxiety (as if I'd taken 10g of amphetamines...) that persisted for weeks and months at a time. And was basically in a dissociated state a lot of the time, yes triggered by the stress of my inner-city surroundings but this was an environment I had been able to deal with for my whole adult life pre-poppers.

Basically given my history I don't think that any amount of use of any variety of poppers can be safe for me. It will only result in a negative experience, most likely at the time and certainly afterwards.

I'm just one of millions of addicts I guess who's taken a knock with Covid/lockdown and hasn't felt able to return to the places and practices that kept me sober and abstinent for 2018 to 2020.

I think also the fact that I'm straight yet using poppers for anxiety/humiliation based experiences make it even more likely that I'm just going to be replaying trauma and self-harm.

Anyway... Sorry for the therapy splurge! Just one of these cases when you need to know when to rule something out. And popper use for me is just a maladaptive response to stress, and not wanting to really feel my emotions and loneliness etc. Yet of course by doing them again I'm just delaying actually dealing with any issues in life.

Glad I got rid of the bottles, anyway.

Billy said on Sun, 28 Nov 2021 at 19:15...

Better message for me than trying poppers again:

https://twitter.com/Tyson_Fury/status/1464905857020399621

Nitritespecialist said on Sun, 28 Nov 2021 at 22:44...

@Billy.....I don't think any recreational drug, and even some therapeutic drug, are worth taking/using if there are significant side effects. It sounds like you're having far more displeasure than fun from the side effects of the poppers you've been using. It's not clear what all the reasons are for the "bad" effects, but I don't doubt that certain poppers, especially those tainted with undesirable impurities, can have terrible side effects. I question your isoamyl nitrite experience, since my experience with it suggests it's less likely to give an ultra bad experience, but nobody knows what the exact composition was inside the bottles you used. I wouldn't attribute it to isoamyl nitrite itself unless you've tried a reliable source of IAN and had similar symptoms.

There are various reasons people use poppers. I think the most common reason for gay men in particular is the ass relax effect, combined with a loss of inhibition and increased libido. You just can't have the same experience naturally, although I personally would rather be totally sane and sober if I'm having fun with a dream partner, especially for the first time. I wouldn't want to miss a thing from being tranced or buzzed out.

If you can find other ways to have fun that don't involve poppers...that's probably the route to take for you.

Billy said on Mon, 29 Nov 2021 at 16:37...

Thanks, Nitritespecialist.

I think I mentioned on another thread that I need an operation on my john thomas.... My frenulum is too short and my foreskin a bit tight. So ejaculation is a bit painful and I've avoided penetrative sex. I know it's weird that I never addressed this earlier in my life (childhood/puberty would have been ideal!) but there you go. I think I just went straight into an anxiety disorder and then made it worse with LSD, ecstasy, alcohol, food, etc, in my late teens and twenties... Then poppers and alcohol in my 30s into 40s.

So if I've got problems cumming, and repressed/badly expressed energy and emotional problems resulting from that, then my use of poppers is going to be bad, too.

If I don't cum easily or all that pleasurably, then psychologically I'll be primed to avoid it, or get it over with quickly. So that will lead to long sessions of analling myself, trying to get pleasure from my prostate, but really just digging myself deeper into a psychosexual hole, so to speak.....

Billy said on Mon, 29 Nov 2021 at 16:40...

I'm waiting to see a urologist next year. Till then, if I do need the occasional blow-out, I think dildoing myself on a mild red wine hangover is plenty enough to give me that dirty feeling that I sometimes crave.

The problem with poppers is that they actually do make you impotent, at least while you are using them, and deplete your energy for the surrounding days and potentially weeks, too.

They're too much for me given my age and history and metabolism. Red wine is enough!

Nitritespecialist said on Tue, 30 Nov 2021 at 20:41...

@Billy....I don't know what poppers you have typically used, but those symptoms sound totally like isopropyl nitrite, which is the polar oppositive of the best poppers. Also, bad isobutyl and n-butyl can have similar bad effects, but perhaps not lasting as long.

I clearly remember buying 10 - 10 ml poppers from Picturebrite.com in 2010. I took them on vacation with me to Southern California. I went through all of them and remember clearly that I had no side effects of any sort that I noticed. They may have seemed a little weak, but not bad or acidic. These were the last bunch of Joe Miller's stock. Everything I bought from that point onward was weak, bad effects, acidic OR toxic bad effects. LRM's poppers are not as good as Joe's, but they haven't given me side effects either. And they last longer than his did. His went dead within hours of the opening hiss.

Billy said on Wed, 1 Dec 2021 at 12:44...

Thanks for your reply, Nitritespecialist. But actually, I must respectfully disagree with your premise!

Isopropyl nitrite gives no psychoactive effect, and when over-used causes coughing and congestion and vomiting during the session. Because these poppers are so unpleasant, they're actually rather hard to over-use.

Whereas the good poppers (which I had in 2010-2011) , the ones that seemed to connect me directly to my sexual energy and pleasure in a way that I'd never experienced before, were the ones that really ignited a frenzy of addiction! Spending on porn, custom recordings, chronic over-use, etc.

The real addict always gets in worse trouble with the good stuff! Whether that is Fine Wine, pizza and ice-cream, or some other more illicit substance.

The bad stuff is no problem, it can be discarded because it doesn't give us the high we're looking for anyway. The real good shit is what gets us into trouble! Because we don't have a stop button.